The Ascendency Labyrinth - My Conclusions so far and how to solve the Problem!

Hello everyone,

Before I get into the details, please read the following. This is probably the most important part before you continue to read the rest of my post.

"

Please keep this in mind when you write something: We already have 2 threads about the labyrinth. One thread is over 60 pages long, the other over 130 pages. In both cases, I have the feeling that over 80% of the posts are full of flame, hatred, sarcasm or ill-intentioned irony. Those threads were less about discussing constructive things and more aboutprovokating each other. This usually leads to a bad atmosphere and derails any thread. There's a good reason why GGG had to step in and remind the people of the forum rules. When something like that happens, the thread loses its function and the developer proably will not keep on reading, because it's tedious.
So when you want to answer to my OP or if you want to discuss something, do it in a polite and constructive manner!

Here are the links to the other 2 threads:

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1602474/page/1
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1609216/page/1

Now lets get into the topic. Before we start, we should ask ourselves:

What made PoE so successful in the first place?

I think this can be answered by anyone who started years ago with Path of Exile. Many were waiting for Diablo 3 at that time and wished for a true Diablo 2 successor. But the more content was revealed, the more the Diablo 2 fans realized, that Diablo 3 will become something different. People wished for deep character customization and a dark story-driven setting. As we all know, Diablo 3 didn't became what people hoped for. Neverthless, it's a good aRPG, just something different. In the regard, many people went to Path of Exile. PoE did offer all the aspects that made Diablo 2 great and on top of that offered even more. Probably the deepest character customization that any game will ever have, a dark setting and fighting hordes of monsters in a very classic aRPG style. Yes, that's what D2 fans wished for. That's what made PoE so successful. PoE came at the perfect time.
But the Ascendency Patch was the first one that was controverse discussed. I mean, yeah, there are ALWAYS threads that criticize a new league, but the hate/flame against Ascendency/GGG was extraordinary high and even now, after the release of prophecy, people discuss Ascendency. And that leads us to the next question:

"Why do many people not like the Labyrinth?"

This is a very important question because it tells us WHERE we should or should not search for solutions. If people don't like it just because it's there, the solution for those people would only be the removal of the labyrinth. But if they don't like something specific, then we can look for better solutions, maybe even alternatives that make mostly everyone happy. After reading some pages in both existing threads, it is kinda clear, why many people don't like it. The problem are the Ascendency points that were put behind the labyrinth and that the labyrinth is a completely different playstyle compared to other aRPG. Some call the playstyle arcade, plattformer or puzzle. Now we should ask the next question:

"What's wrong with traps in an aRPG? When you look at the definition, aren't traps kinda part of any aRPG?"

Here is the definition from Wikipedia: "Action role-playing games (abbreviated action RPG, action/RPG, or ARPG) form a loosely defined subgenre of role-playing video games that incorporate elements of action or action-adventure games, emphasizing real-time action where the player has direct control over characters, instead of turn-based or menu-based combat. These games often use combat systems similar to hack and slash or shooter games."
And yes, this is a pretty strong argument at first glance, because traps ARE part of action-adventure games. But what's wrong with Ascendency then? Why people do not like it if traps were always part of aRPGs? Here is my personal conclusion why people probably hate those traps in PoE, while they don't hate them in other aRPG:

1. The traps ignore a big part of your character build and some can easily kill you in 2-5 seconds. Since PoE is all about character customization, people complain that the traps are kinda to strong (especially against those who built very tanky) and they feel like that they ignore your character build at least to some degree. That means even if you have 20k+ armor and 6k+ life, you will still be shred by those traps. In most aRPGs, traps deal a fixed amount of damage, which can easily be reduced by defensive stats. In regards to the PoE traps, ES and Life Regen can help, but the traps are still very unforgiving.

2. Traps in PoE are not always avoidable. There are ways/rooms with unavoidable trap sequences. This is not something you will find in other aRPGs. In other classic aRPGs, traps are usually scattered throughout the room with the purpose to hinder the movement of the player and to make it harder for you to actually fight enemies, making your positioning very important. In PoE on the other side, you are forced to pass through traps in order to get a key or to get to the Izaro fight. This is the main reason, why people call it arcade, plattformer or puzzle. It has nothing in common with the classic aRPG playstyle. Those trap rooms are a completely different genre and I think it's understandable, that some don't like this

3. All aRPGs we know are played offline most of the time. Diablo 2, Torchlight 2 and so on. That means, you will usually have no problem with lags. PoE on the other side is played online all the time. Especially since the new optimization patch (~2.3), people have to face heavy lag spikes and even 0fps sometimes for some seconds. If this happens in the labyrinth, it can easily mean your death. Not just that, if you play hardcore, you're probably dead before you know it. Playing a plattformer/arcade with lage-spikes is a real no-ogo, especially in HC.

So I think these are 3 pretty strong arguments, why Traps in PoE are different from Traps in other aRPGs and that these 3 points are also good indiciators, why many hate them. Now the next question we should ask.

"Do we have to remove the traps or the labyrinth?"

My own standpoint is clearly: NO! There are tons of people who enjoy it. And why shouldn't they? aRPG fans can also like arcade/puzzle/plattformer games and if you happen to like both genres, you will probably be happy that Ascendency was implemented. It would be UNFAIR to remove the labyrnith or change the trap mechanics just because others don't like them. But on the other side, there's a big part of the community who don't like the playstyle of the current labyrinth. I do understand both sides perfectly fine, but if a big part of the community is unhappy, it's the job of the developer to think of solutions and figuring out, what exactly is hated. The community (we) can help in that process and give proper feedback. I think that didn't happen in the other 2 threads, because some people always try to derail threads. Especially the extreme ones (those who LOVE the labyrinth and those who HATE it extremely much) tend to start flaming and trying to provokate. But I think there are enough people out there who can discuss something like this in a constructive and polite manner. So now we have a devided community when it comes to the question, if you actually like or hate the labyrnith. So my next question is:

"What can we actually do to make both sides happy?"

It pretty much comes down to some extra work for GGG. Letting the labyrinth stay as it is without any changes will let a big part of the community be unhappy. Removing or changing it will also make a big part of the community unhappy. So we need to find a solution that pleases both sides. Like I mentioned above, people who "hate the labyrinth" don't actually hate it. They hate the fact that they have to do THIS kind of labyrnith to actually get the Ascendency Points. Yes, that means they don't hate the content, they hate that their character customization is "gated" (I know this word in hated by some, but lets keep it simple and call it gated) behind the lab. If those people could get their AC points in a different way other then playing the labyrinth, they would probably never have any problems with the Labyrinth. So since we want to make both sides happy and the removal of the labyrinth is out of question, the only remaining solution is to give us an alternative way to get the AC points. So here's the next question:

"What kind of alternative would be fair to both sides?"

I made this suggestion in the other thread already, but I think it's the best solution we have right now, since it doesn't change anything about the original labyrinth, but offers an alternative for those who want to play PoE in a more classic way:

"

Give every player who joins the labyrinth the choice between 2 ways of defeating the labyrinth. Here is a grafic that shows what I mean



Labyrinth 1 - Arcade Playstyle: This is what the labyrinth is right now. Rooms filled with unavoidable traps and most of the time no monsters (or at least no strong ones) around. In this example, you need to get over the pit-traps, followed by moving sentry drones and so on and on. Why should someone choose this labyrnith? Because there should be treasure boxes all over the place, but behind traps ofc. Those treasure boxes drop ALOT of items, with similiar chances for currency and rare/unique items like when you kill a unique monster. People who are used to the arcade style can get some nice loot here. Also the boxes are needed to balance the drops a player can make in the Labyrinth 2 - Classic Playstyle.

Labyrinth 2 - Classic Playstyle: In this example, the player enters a room full of monsters and some scattered traps. The difference between this layout and the arcade playstyle layout is, that you can completely avoid all traps. You don't have to pass them at all to get to the next room. BUT they are there! They should make it harder for you to fight mobs but the rooms should still provide enough space to move around them (like in the example). In the classic playstyle labyrinth, the player will face many rare/unique monsters and have to fight many at the same time quite often. Since players could probably finish this much faster then the arcade labyrinth, there are 2 solutions to hinder the movement of players who play the classic playstyle labyrinth: You either have to clear the rooms, meaning you have to kill the enemies OR you have to pull some levers inside of a room to open the door to the next room. Furthermore: To balance this, there will be no treasure boxes at all (since rare/unique monsters have good drop chances already). The combination of scattered (but avoidable) traps and many strong mobs make the labyrinth quite hard. Maybe even as hard as the arcade labyrinth, BUT it is much closer to the normal poe experience we learned to love.

I think this solution would be fair to both sides, because it pleases arcade and non-arcade players in a good way and it offers a more PoE-like experience. Now lets get to the last question:

"What advantages and disadvantages would this suggestion provide?"

Advantages:
- We would have a solution for labyrinth lovers and haters. The arcade Labyrinth will stay as it is and the classic Labyrinth will finaly offer the alternative so many players are hoping for
- People who hate arcade finaly have a way to solve the labyrinth by themeselves and can customize their character with the ascendency points

Neutral (not positive/not negative):
- People who don't like the arcade lab don't have to buy expensive lab runs anymore. On the other side, those who offer lab runs don't have this income anymore
- Some argue that people wouldn't do the arcade labyrinth anymore if there would be a more classic way to get the AC points. Though I don't think this is a disadvantage, since this would show that people would prefer the classic playstyle over the arcade playstyle.

Disadvantages:
- Obviously more work for GGG. They need to create the classic playstyle Labyrinth and probably need to change the Lore a little bit with new voice acting. Some argue, that it would be better to spent this time on new content or bug fixing and that you can't always please all the players, but lets not forget that GGG implement softcore and hardcore and always delivers new leagues for both difficulty settings. And GGG does it, because many people don't like HC. I think it is good to invest time into things if it makes the community happy, because it helps to keep the good reputation of a game high and also makes it more likely that people will actually stick with the game and purchase stuff for it.
- Maybe it makes the arcade labyrinth feel less rewarding, since most do it for the AC points only. But there are surely ways to make the trap labyrinth more interesting, without putting the AC point exclusively behind the arcade lab. For example, the devs could implement exclusive unique items for the arcade and classic labyrinth. So if you want to find those, you have to play the specific labyrinth types. They also could give every labyrinth type their own crafting modifications, making it worthwhile to go through the arcade labyrinth maybe.

I guess there are more points to be listed here, but I think this is enough for now. If you made it to this points, you have my respect. This is probably one of the biggest TL;DR threads I ever created, but I think it's for a good purpose.

So if you want to discuss this matter, keep in mind to stay constructive and polite to each other. We don't need another 100+ pages thread filled with flame/hate.


Greetings,

Ace

"

AceNightfire wrote:

"Why do many people not like the Labyrinth?"

since when vocal minority is 'many'? and since when you not liking something is a 'problem'?

ill repeat what Chris himself said about this situation

'i know that some players do not like the lab and im fine with that'. State of Exile podcast, Prophecy episode

and because you base your entire 'story' on a false premise there is little to talk about.



but few notes:

1) there are NO unavoidable traps. you claiming otherwise is a lie.

2) any and i mean ANY build can do traps. some have it easier but ALL builds can do it - just do not make stupid mistakes. this also applies to Map Trials that are way harder than normal ones. 'doing' != 'speed running' but i think this is a given. sub 15 minutes per lab are perfectly fine on ANY build, i probably can do 10 minute run on ANY build but to be reasonable - 15.

3) your build matters more than you think. youll notice that once you finally understand how this thing works. AR, PhysRed, End Charges, EV etc all help in some situations. ruby flask makes lava traps irrelevant. this however does not contradict (2) because you can still do it PERFECTLY fine without said measures. slower - yes, but safe and sound.

4) the only build limiting thing is Izaro - you just need to be on top of your game to beat him level-appropriate. there is absolutely nothing forcing you to do him level appropriate tho - overlevel a bit - kill him later.

5) traps are skill check. your skill check. not copy pasting skill check, not trading skill check, not right-click-gorge-rota check but your brain and muscle skill check. and i bet this is what makes people dislike it so much. lab exposes their 'skills'. some try harder, get better and move on. some whine for 3 months (soon 4) despite ggg being perfectly happy about it. whining rarely solves problems.

6) solution replacing traps (brain challenge) with 'moar damaga and free XP' map without traps is not a solution. stuff you can kill with offscreen is not a challenge worth Ascendancy Points.

Yea this would fix a problem so many people have with the lab, including me. So +1

"

sidtherat wrote:

"

AceNightfire wrote:

"Why do many people not like the Labyrinth?"

since when vocal minority is 'many'? and since when you not liking something is a 'problem'?

ill repeat what Chris himself said about this situation

'i know that some players do not like the lab and im fine with that'. State of Exile podcast, Prophecy episode

and because you base your entire 'story' on a false premise there is little to talk about.

Because thats the thing chris said it himself in the same podcast. In fact he contradict him self in that podcast, in one part saying vocal minority, on other part saying many people dont like the lab. The fact is he doesnt know how many people like or dont like it as they didnt do any official polls.

But its not false premise, as we have data all over the forum, reddit, youtube, streamers, saying that there are a lot of people not liking the lab. Fact that this is still most talked thing on the forum for over 3 months says a lot, and that is that there are many players that dont like the lab.

As to OP, Like the change, but would like more for points to be removed form shit lab, and people that want to play arcade platform crap can play, others that want to play normal arpg gameplay will not touch that shit.

"

sidtherat wrote:

"

AceNightfire wrote:

"Why do many people not like the Labyrinth?"

since when vocal minority is 'many'? and since when you not liking something is a 'problem'?

ill repeat what Chris himself said about this situation

'i know that some players do not like the lab and im fine with that'. State of Exile podcast, Prophecy episode

and because you base your entire 'story' on a false premise there is little to talk about.

We can debate over the definition of a majority or minority. It's a matter of fact that the ascendency labyrinth is one of the most controversal discussed updates in poE history and is still discussed alot even with the new league released. It's not something the community has accepted as a whole yet.

Lets not forget: We have 2 vocal minorities here. We do not know the exact number of people who actually like or dislike the labyrinth. But there seems to be at least enough "dislike" to keep the discussion about the labyrinth up. Though I don't think debating over the definition of many/much/majority/minority will help solve the problem at all.

"

sidtherat wrote:

but few notes:

1) there are NO unavoidable traps. you claiming otherwise is a lie.

Especially the maps where you have to get a key are full of unavoidable traps. Maybe the word "unavoidable" is wrong. Ofc you can pass them without them hitting you. But you can't choose a different way without traps. Here is an example:



In order to get through this, you have to pass these traps. You need to know the sequence the traps are following. This is still an easy trap sequence. There are rooms though, where you can't use lightning warp or movement skills in a way to completely avoid the traps. If you take a look at my suggestion, then you can see in the arcade example a trap sequence, where you have to pass over pits, then dodge the sentry drones, then again pits and so on and on. That's arcade gameplay, not aRPG. I gave some examples of how traps work in usual aRPGs.

"

sidtherat wrote:

2) any and i mean ANY build can do traps. some have it easier but ALL builds can do it - just do not make stupid mistakes. this also applies to Map Trials that are way harder than normal ones. 'doing' != 'speed running' but i think this is a given. sub 15 minutes per lab are perfectly fine on ANY build, i probably can do 10 minute run on ANY build but to be reasonable - 15.

Yes, because you are good with traps. Seems like you don't have problems with the arcade playstyle. I'm happy for you. But you can't expect that everyone likes this type of gameplay which you usually don't find in classic aRPG (Torchlight 2, Diablo 2 etc.). And yes, it's like you said, any build can finish it (I never said something else). The problem is, that people who built tanky do not benefit much from their tankiness against traps, because the way traps work make a simple mistake deadly for every build. Ofc this also happens in the classic playstyle, but people who are not used to arcade gameplay tend to make more mistakes in the labyrinth compared to the classic playstyle (which they are used to).

"

sidtherat wrote:

3) your build matters more than you think. youll notice that once you finally understand how this thing works. AR, PhysRed, End Charges, EV etc all help in some situations. ruby flask makes lava traps irrelevant. this however does not contradict (2) because you can still do it PERFECTLY fine without said measures. slower - yes, but safe and sound.

Even safe and sound will not prevent lag spikes or 0fps situations when you're int he labyrinth. I'm taking a look at your profile right now and it seems like you're playing standard softcore league. So there's literally no risk for you doing the labyrinth. But for those who play HC AND dont like the arcade gameplay, the labyrinth is just a pain. And how does evasion help you against trap damage?

"

sidtherat wrote:

4) the only build limiting thing is Izaro - you just need to be on top of your game to beat him level-appropriate. there is absolutely nothing forcing you to do him level appropriate tho - overlevel a bit - kill him later.

No one questions the Izaro fight. Maybe the 3rd room has to many traps, but the whole fight is in line with classic poe-playstyle. People are complaining about trap rooms and the AC points behind the lab, not Izaro himself.

"

sidtherat wrote:

5) traps are skill check. your skill check. not copy pasting skill check, not trading skill check, not right-click-gorge-rota check but your brain and muscle skill check. and i bet this is what makes people dislike it so much. lab exposes their 'skills'. some try harder, get better and move on. some whine for 3 months (soon 4) despite ggg being perfectly happy about it. whining rarely solves problems.

So what? PoE started being a classic aRPG. A classic aRPG is a combination of well thought character customization, good equipment and knowing your enemy. If people wanted to play an arcade game, they would have chosen a different game. That's the whole problem. I want to play PoE like a classic aRPG, but GGG kinda forces me to play arcade if I want to get the AC points. The skills you're talking about are not much needed in the classic PoE gameplay. When I fight Malachai or Dominus or Map bosses my character build, my equipment and my knowledge about the boss matters and PROBABLY my skill with mobility, when my build based on mobility. But not everyone plays with mobility and therefore doesn't need skill with that. So yeah, no one complains about your "skill checks" in the labyrinth, everyone just complains about the AC points behind the lab.

"

sidtherat wrote:

6) solution replacing traps (brain challenge) with 'moar damaga and free XP' map without traps is not a solution. stuff you can kill with offscreen is not a challenge worth Ascendancy Points.

The traps also exist in my suggestion. The difference is, that the traps are more scattered. And don't forget: I still can buy a lab run from someone else who does the hard parts for me. It costs me some chaos, but I don't have to do the key maps at all to get to Izaro. So if I do this, then there's no skill check at all? I don't even have to fight Izaro myself if I dont want to. And I still get my AC points. Ofc I have to pass some traps, but the really dangerous patterns are in the key rooms. So all in all I'm trying to find a solution that stays in line with the classic PoE playstyle. If that playstyle is "unskilled" for you, then that's fine with me. Then I'm just an unskilled player. Though that doesn't change the fact that I want to customize my character (and AC points are very important for that) and that I still love PoE. Why should the devs want to avoid people getting AC points in a more classic playstyle? It doesn't make much sense, since PoE got successful because of that classic playstyle.

"

sidtherat wrote:

"

AceNightfire wrote:

"Why do many people not like the Labyrinth?"

since when vocal minority is 'many'? and since when you not liking something is a 'problem'?

ill repeat what Chris himself said about this situation

'i know that some players do not like the lab and im fine with that'. State of Exile podcast, Prophecy episode

and because you base your entire 'story' on a false premise there is little to talk about.

...hurrrrr

too bad ggg doesn't ban trolls.


@OP, they (ggg) don't care. they're making a game THEY want to play, not a game we want to play. and by the looks of it, they no longer want to play an arpg :) i'd say expect more changes along the lines of awful platforming and free loot fest leagues.

I hate when people define what a game is supposed to be. Can't have traps in an arpg. Why not? If you watch a Drama movie, is it not allowed to have any funny lines? Should bits of comedy not be allowed in it? Is an action movie not allowed to have bits of other genres? PoE is a game. It's not defined by you or wiki or anybody else. It's defined by the makers. So telling them what belongs in their game is arrogant and presumptuous. Not directed at anyone in particular. I just keep seeing this "this game is arpg and so must be exactly like arpg supposed to be" argument coming up in every thread questioning ggg design decisions.

my problem with traps is they punish tanky build more than glass cannon. it completely make your build pointless. Why should I build a tank for laby? Point less. just build a decent guy that survive izaro 1 shot and Alpha him b4 he get you.

Trap should have do a flat damage.

means if u build a glass cannon = you will not able to take more than 1 hit.
if you build a take, you can take 2-3 hits.

second problem
Izaro summoned minions.

if you kill his minions, his minion disappear instead of becoming a corpse.
who is the dummy that thinks summoner doesnt exist in POE?

"

mark1030 wrote:

I hate when people define what a game is supposed to be. Can't have traps in an arpg. Why not? If you watch a Drama movie, is it not allowed to have any funny lines? Should bits of comedy not be allowed in it? Is an action movie not allowed to have bits of other genres? PoE is a game. It's not defined by you or wiki or anybody else. It's defined by the makers. So telling them what belongs in their game is arrogant and presumptuous. Not directed at anyone in particular. I just keep seeing this "this game is arpg and so must be exactly like arpg supposed to be" argument coming up in every thread questioning ggg design decisions.

[Removed by Support]

did you read OP? he said he didn't want traps to be removed!

also:
can we not tell the makers (GGG) that we don't like a certain aspect of their game?

well ok ... then there is no need for forums and discussion.
people will just leave the game without the devs ever knowing what is the problem.

why do you think subscription based games ask you why you are not supporting the game anymore!
this is not possible here as the game is free.

i'm not against traps as a whole but i think their implementation is bad. you can pretty much ignore trap damage with just flasks. and i dont like ppl running it without killing a single mob (well ok you HAVE to kill irzaro once).
what about traps that actually trap you ... in a room maybe and like the arena in act4 it only opens again if you kill the mobs.

I like the suggestion but it's probably unrealistic to expect GGG to make that large of a change.




@mark this game is defined by the players, the genre is defined by what the players of that genre expect and the success of the company is defined by those players willingness to support a game where access to the game doesn't require money. GGG's designers made a mistake not in making the lab but by not making it optional. It's ok to throw in w/e extra shit they want to but if it obviously goes so much against the grain of the genre make it optional, simple. And by optional I mean you can't gate basic character progression behind it. Honestly a professional video game designer should've known better. Now we're stuck with this poor decision because GGG is too proud to admit they've made a mistake.