Mechanical Questions Thread

Empire's Grasp + Bleed

If a melee monster is all up in your face, and you knock it "back" with a hit that causes bleeding, it won't actually move or take extra damage, right? Since as soon as it starts moving it collides with you?

Wands and their passive nodes.

Tempest Blast: Add 30% of physical damage as lightning damage
Cold Damage: Add 10% of physical damage as cold damage
Fire Damage: Add 10% of physical damage as fire damage
Wand Damage: 15% increased damage with wands
Physical Damage: 12% increased physical damage with wands
Elemental Damage: 8% increased elemental damage with wands
Projectile Damage: 8% increased projectile damage

How do these all work together?

You have (phys damage) + (elemental damage) for total damage.
WED modifies the (elemental damage) part only
Physical damage modifies the (phys damage) part only
Then what?

Does "increased damage with wands" apply to both phys and elemental damage? Does it count before the additional elemental %-of-phys damage, and then apply to the ele damage or does it get applied last?

How and what does "projectile damage" affect?

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Jazriel wrote:

Wands and their passive nodes.

Tempest Blast: Add 30% of physical damage as lightning damage
Cold Damage: Add 10% of physical damage as cold damage
Fire Damage: Add 10% of physical damage as fire damage
Wand Damage: 15% increased damage with wands
Physical Damage: 12% increased physical damage with wands
Elemental Damage: 8% increased elemental damage with wands
Projectile Damage: 8% increased projectile damage

How do these all work together?

You have (phys damage) + (elemental damage) for total damage.
WED modifies the (elemental damage) part only
Physical damage modifies the (phys damage) part only
Then what?

Does "increased damage with wands" apply to both phys and elemental damage? Does it count before the additional elemental %-of-phys damage, and then apply to the ele damage or does it get applied last?

How and what does "projectile damage" affect?

These all follow the standard rules of damage conversion. Notably, converted damage counts as both the source and target damage type for the purposes of determining what bonuses apply.

So WED will only affect the extra elemental damage, but physical damage bonuses will affect the whole package. Also, conversion (and "X added as Y" is still conversion, only without removing the source damage) happens before any modifiers are applied. So the game first takes your base physical damage, converts/adds the proportional elements to that base damage, then scales these various bits of damage based on what modifiers apply.

"Increased Damage with Wands" applies to all Attack damage, provided you used a wand for the attack.

"Projectile damage" applies to all damage caused by a Projectile, including all Attack damage with wands, but also any DoT applied by such an attack. This phenomenon is what people refer to as "double dipping", and will be removed in 3.0.

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suszterpatt wrote:

These all follow the standard rules of damage conversion. Notably, converted damage counts as both the source and target damage type for the purposes of determining what bonuses apply.

So WED will only affect the extra elemental damage, but physical damage bonuses will affect the whole package. Also, conversion (and "X added as Y" is still conversion, only without removing the source damage) happens before any modifiers are applied. So the game first takes your base physical damage, converts/adds the proportional elements to that base damage, then scales these various bits of damage based on what modifiers apply.

"Increased Damage with Wands" applies to all Attack damage, provided you used a wand for the attack.

"Projectile damage" applies to all damage caused by a Projectile, including all Attack damage with wands, but also any DoT applied by such an attack. This phenomenon is what people refer to as "double dipping", and will be removed in 3.0.

So "Projectile Damage" is basically multiplicative instead of additive? That doesn't really make a lot of sense but I guess if that's how it works then Projectile Damage is better than the rest. Does "Increased Damage with Wands" also count as a multiplier for total damage? Is it multiplicative with a support gem that would do "more" damage like slower projectiles?

So basically since there's +50% damage as elemental damage in the tree, all "Increased Damage with Wands" can be considered to be 1.5x what it actually says, same with projectile damage since it will increase equally both the phys base damage and the elemental damage?

Guess I'll bust out excel and figure out the optimal way to get the most damage from passive for fewest points then.

No, all Increased Damage is additive whether projectile or not. The only way Projectile Damage is better than the rest is that, up until version 3.0 (i.e. for the next 3 months), it can double dip on all derived DoTS (Ignite, Poison, Bleeding). That has nothing to do with multiplicative/additive stacking per se, it's more like it is two bonuses wrapped into one, for derived DoTs only.

Suppose you have 100 physical wand damage. You have 30% increased physical attack damage and 30% increased projectile damage. You will deal 160 physical damage on hit.

Double dipping is if you have 100 physical wand damage and the Poison property. You have 30% increased physical attack damage and 30% increased projectile damage. You still deal 160 physical damage on hit; the Poison is 8% of that per second for 2 seconds, so 160 * 0.08 = 12.8 chaos per second; the 30% increased projectile then applies to that and turns it into 16.64 chaos per second. This is called double dip because the 30% has modified the final damage output twice; 30% contributing to the original hit (i.e. 0.08 of 160 instead of of 100, then it multiplies the poison directly)

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Jazriel wrote:

So "Projectile Damage" is basically multiplicative instead of additive?

Only if it says "More Projectile damage" instead of "Increased Projectiles damage". :) "Increased" is additive, "More" is multiplicative, regardless of everything else.

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Jazriel wrote:

That doesn't really make a lot of sense but I guess if that's how it works then Projectile Damage is better than the rest.

Projectile will make sure that all your wand damage will scale, be it physical, elemental, or chaos. It will also double dip, so yes, it's the best.

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Jazriel wrote:

Does "Increased Damage with Wands" also count as a multiplier for total damage? Is it multiplicative with a support gem that would do "more" damage like slower projectiles?

All modifiers that say "Increased" or "Decreased" add their values together to form a final multiplier from the end result. E.g. if you have "+50% increased Projectile damage" and "+30% Damage with Wands", then that's a combined 1.8x multipler that will affect all your wand damage, since all wand damage is inherently Projectile damage. This multiplier will be multiplied together with any other "More" or "Less" damage modifiers you might have.

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Jazriel wrote:

So basically since there's +50% damage as elemental damage in the tree, all "Increased Damage with Wands" can be considered to be 1.5x what it actually says, same with projectile damage since it will increase equally both the phys base damage and the elemental damage?

That's one way to look at it, yes. If you have a combined 50% physical damage added as elemental damage, then that's roughly equivalent to a "50% more damage" modifier since your base damage will be 1.5 times its normal value (remember, conversion applies to the base damage before modifiers). Of course things get more complicated once you start factoring in elemental-only modifiers, monster resistances, status ailments caused by the extra elemental damage etc.

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Jazriel wrote:

Guess I'll bust out excel and figure out the optimal way to get the most damage from passive for fewest points then.

Don't overthink it. :) Your delicate calculations can be upset by an unexpectedly good drop such as a ring with 2 additional damage modifiers. It's better to experiment and see what works best for you. Though in general, for a phys->ele wander, your priorities should be:

1. Projectile damage: this applies to all wand damage (and for now, it double dips if you cause poison/ignite)
2. Wand damage: same as Projectile, but without the double dipping
3. Physical damage: this will not apply to flat added elemental/chaos damage, but it will scale flat added physical damage as well as the elemental damage you gain from "physical added as" modifiers
4. Elemental damage: don't bother with this unless you go for full phys->elemental conversion

So I have a question about how damage conversion works. Let's pretend I'm using doomfletch prism with lightning arrow and a poison support gem and I would hit something for 100 physical damage before any conversion takes place. Would I be doing less elemental/poison damage overall because lightning arrow would be converting my physical damage to lightning damage before it scaled the elemental damage from the physical damage on the doomfletch, and the poison damage from the physical damage on the poison support gem?

Sorry if I worded that awkwardly, but hopefully that makes sense.

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FabledGumbo wrote:

So I have a question about how damage conversion works. Let's pretend I'm using doomfletch prism with lightning arrow and a poison support gem and I would hit something for 100 physical damage before any conversion takes place. Would I be doing less elemental/poison damage overall because lightning arrow would be converting my physical damage to lightning damage before it scaled the elemental damage from the physical damage on the doomfletch, and the poison damage from the physical damage on the poison support gem?

Less poison: yes, poison is based on final damage
Less elemental: no, because Added As occurs at the same time as conversion (or before, if you prefer)

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adghar wrote:

Less poison: yes, poison is based on final damage
Less elemental: no, because Added As occurs at the same time as conversion (or before, if you prefer)

Good to know. Sounds like I can do Tornado Shot or Lightning Arrow if I want to do Doomfletch, but I should do Tornado Shot over Lightning Arrow if I want to scale my damage through poison.

I guess I should also ask if I'm leeching from physical damage, is the leech amount determined by the physical damage before or after the conversion to lightning damage?

How does the melee splash from the Glacial Hammer jewel will work ?

Will it scale from AoE in the tree or only AoE linked to your skill ?
Will it have the AoE of a non-quality Melee Splash ?