[2.3] "Blender Rebirth" : Dual Wielding Axe / Sword Lacerate

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Kormir wrote:

Hey zankioh,

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zankioh wrote:

I assume this is for SC? Do you think this would be HC worthy?

The build at first was only made for HardCore with the Axe x2 Setup while being Champion. The Sword x2 Gladiator setup was added thanks to VHBegh & Ikbosh ideas.

You can still do both either in HC or SC, however the Gladiator setup is way less defensive than the other one, so it depends on yourself and your limits while playing.

And for sure my Defensive Setup is HC worthy since it's the build I attend to use during the Prophecy HC league.

Hey! Great to hear that, I'm also interested in HC league only, so good to know I can follow you there :)

Definitely interested in this and will keep a close eye on every update you push out, I'm excited to play with a new skill and do something different.

what I still don't know is if it is really worth it to take outmatch and outclass over blood in the eyes as gladiator, with one you get 10% MORE phys dmg and 10% less phys dmg received but with blood in the eyes you maim enemies,25% more chance to bleed (almost always) 6% reduced dmg (not only phys) and 30% inc phys dmg (which is less than 10% MORE) so I'm not sure which one would be better.. ofcourse with outmatch and outclass you wouldn't need to cast enduring cry or blood rage but why would you not do it anyways? also it would be needed for bosses.

Im gonna try this axe champion build for propecy hc. Thanks for make this build

Hey both of you,

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BasedDong wrote:

what I still don't know is if it is really worth it to take outmatch and outclass over blood in the eyes as gladiator, with one you get 10% MORE phys dmg and 10% less phys dmg received but with blood in the eyes you maim enemies,25% more chance to bleed (almost always) 6% reduced dmg (not only phys) and 30% inc phys dmg (which is less than 10% MORE) so I'm not sure which one would be better.. ofcourse with outmatch and outclass you wouldn't need to cast enduring cry or blood rage but why would you not do it anyways? also it would be needed for bosses.

You have about the same feeling as me. However, since nobody have the possibility to try the skill as of now, I went with the more generic and easy going idea which is Outmatch & Outlast. However, since I'll try the Gladiator setup with my Softcore character, I'll have plenty of room to test both path and decide which is best. So for now, think about taking the basic one, but it may changes with time.

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trocolo69 wrote:

Im gonna try this axe champion build for propecy hc. Thanks for make this build

No problem, I hope to get your feelings on it so I can either update my guide or find new ways of playing it :)

I'd try lacerate some more right now but it cuts off sound... hope they fix that soon :)

So, i just hit your last leveling tree and something seems to be wrong with it, because that one has axe nodes in it, and i chose dual wield swords, probably wanna look into that. Besides that, good job Kormir. With my sweet little lvl 62 atleast at which level im writing this im at 7,1k dmg with anything and at about 10k with auras. 5 Frenzys ( chose kraitlyn merc ) im at 15k damage. And thats with literally shitty ass gear thats self-found till merciless. So, probs to you build's working nicely. Leveling was shit with Lacerate though, its so slow that sometimes just 1 slash hits which decreases your damage so far its beyond bullshit until multistrike comes into place. Im actually thinking about getting an Abyssus if i get the chance to get a cheap lightning coil since i have the 1 Jew = 5 link in my Stash, probably will comment again then.

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BasedDong wrote:

what I still don't know is if it is really worth it to take outmatch and outclass over blood in the eyes as gladiator, with one you get 10% MORE phys dmg and 10% less phys dmg received but with blood in the eyes you maim enemies,25% more chance to bleed (almost always) 6% reduced dmg (not only phys) and 30% inc phys dmg (which is less than 10% MORE) so I'm not sure which one would be better.. ofcourse with outmatch and outclass you wouldn't need to cast enduring cry or blood rage but why would you not do it anyways? also it would be needed for bosses.

Less the decision between those two, and more whether or not Versatile Combat is worth taking over Blood in the Eyes.

In practice, I don't think you're going to have enough Block chance for Versatile Combat to be that effective, whereas Blood in the Eyes is always going to benefit you, even if it's just by ensuring you don't need to spend a mod on Bleed on Hit or use one of a few specific uniques to enable it.

Literally doubling your chance to cause Bleeding will lead to more Explosions, as well as enabling the auxiliary benefits more often - 30% increased damage increased to 60%, 6% reduced damage from those targets. If the goal is to make the screen explode with Bleeding enemies, Blood in the Eyes accomplishes it. If you want to be defensive, play Champion instead.

Hey all of you,

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zankioh wrote:

I'd try lacerate some more right now but it cuts off sound... hope they fix that soon :)

Well, it was a bug with everything at 2.3.0 release so, have to wait for GGG.

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Ser0ven wrote:

So, i just hit your last leveling tree and something seems to be wrong with it, because that one has axe nodes in it, and i chose dual wield swords, probably wanna look into that. Besides that, good job Kormir. With my sweet little lvl 62 atleast at which level im writing this im at 7,1k dmg with anything and at about 10k with auras. 5 Frenzys ( chose kraitlyn merc ) im at 15k damage. And thats with literally shitty ass gear thats self-found till merciless. So, probs to you build's working nicely. Leveling was shit with Lacerate though, its so slow that sometimes just 1 slash hits which decreases your damage so far its beyond bullshit until multistrike comes into place. Im actually thinking about getting an Abyssus if i get the chance to get a cheap lightning coil since i have the 1 Jew = 5 link in my Stash, probably will comment again then.

Thanks for the huge feedback mate :)
Well, for the passive tree, maybe a bug of relation between the Offline Tree and the Official Tree. I'll remake every tree from the Official one since it was release at least, so it'll be fix sometimes today.
I'm happy to hear that you enjoy the build as much as I do (even if I'm doing some testing while playing but still ^^).
I had the same feeling as you while leveling, before Multistrike and even with Faster Attacks, the skill feels slow as a snail... It's pretty terrible for leveling, I can only agree.
The Abyssus / Lightning Coil combo can result in some pretty insane damage I think, so it'll end up pretty good I hope. Waiting for more info' :p

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Archimtiros wrote:

Less the decision between those two, and more whether or not Versatile Combat is worth taking over Blood in the Eyes.

In practice, I don't think you're going to have enough Block chance for Versatile Combat to be that effective, whereas Blood in the Eyes is always going to benefit you, even if it's just by ensuring you don't need to spend a mod on Bleed on Hit or use one of a few specific uniques to enable it.

Literally doubling your chance to cause Bleeding will lead to more Explosions, as well as enabling the auxiliary benefits more often - 30% increased damage increased to 60%, 6% reduced damage from those targets. If the goal is to make the screen explode with Bleeding enemies, Blood in the Eyes accomplishes it. If you want to be defensive, play Champion instead.

Since the Gladiator setup is inspired by Ikbosh first idea, it is, in a way, a build to use with a Rumi's Concoction, so the Block won't be an issue, and I can assure you that.
The goal wasn't to be full offensive as I explained in my guide, so the rest of your comment doesn't really matter to me at this point. But just, your last sentence made me laugh a bit. Since when Champion is the only class you can play defensive ?
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1647240 => Defensive Gladiator build, just saying.

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Kormir wrote:

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Archimtiros wrote:

Less the decision between those two, and more whether or not Versatile Combat is worth taking over Blood in the Eyes.

In practice, I don't think you're going to have enough Block chance for Versatile Combat to be that effective, whereas Blood in the Eyes is always going to benefit you, even if it's just by ensuring you don't need to spend a mod on Bleed on Hit or use one of a few specific uniques to enable it.

Literally doubling your chance to cause Bleeding will lead to more Explosions, as well as enabling the auxiliary benefits more often - 30% increased damage increased to 60%, 6% reduced damage from those targets. If the goal is to make the screen explode with Bleeding enemies, Blood in the Eyes accomplishes it. If you want to be defensive, play Champion instead.

Since the Gladiator setup is inspired by Ikbosh first idea, it is, in a way, a build to use with a Rumi's Concoction, so the Block won't be an issue, and I can assure you that.
The goal wasn't to be full offensive as I explained in my guide, so the rest of your comment doesn't really matter to me at this point. But just, your last sentence made me laugh a bit. Since when Champion is the only class you can play defensive ?
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1647240 => Defensive Gladiator build, just saying.

First off, I didn't say Champion was the only defensive option, I was referencing this very guide which lists Champion as the go-to build for a defensive setup. I'd also point out that the guide you linked to make your misguided point is actually a defensive build in that it uses a shield and actively stacks Block Chance, which thereby maximizes the usefulness of Versatile Combat; yours does not. Because it does not, as far as this build is concerned, Champion is going to be a lot tankier than Gladiator.

Second, Rumi's only adds at best 30% to your block chance, 15% with the spell effect, and 13% from the tree, so block is getting better, but still only two-thirds of what it would be in an actual block build. I didn't say that Versatile Combat was worthless, but that the overall block chance is going to be low enough that it's unreliable, which is still true with Rumi's. I also want to point out that you don't even mention Rumi's within your guide, at least not within the gear section, which makes me question whether Rumi's was meant to be used with this build... but that's besides the point.

Lastly, you did not state in your guide that it was meant to have a defensive theme or that it wasn't meant to be purely offensive, outside of your secondary/HC-setup using Champion, which would imply that the Gladiator subclass was meant to be the offensive one; so if that was your goal, you failed to convey it. In fact, you mention an offensive setup multiple times specifically WRT Gladiator. Regardless, that doesn't address the point I brought up: Because you're not actively stacking Block, you're gaining little out of Versatile Combat, whereas you would be gaining a lot out of Blood in the Eyes. While it may not be a purely defensive choice, it's still a directly comparable one as they are mutually exclusive, and in that light, Blood in the Eyes wins hands down.

I'll close by referencing this;

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Kormir wrote:

So feel free to comment / criticize (as long as it is constructive), I will really appreciate it, any idea is welcomed !

Kind of a strange thing to say if you're going to be a dick about someone raising a valid point and offering a alternative suggestion.

Hey again,

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Archimtiros wrote:

First off, I didn't say Champion was the only defensive option, I was referencing this very guide which lists Champion as the go-to build for a defensive setup. I'd also point out that the guide you linked to make your misguided point is actually a defensive build in that it uses a shield and actively stacks Block Chance, which thereby maximizes the usefulness of Versatile Combat; yours does not. Because it does not, as far as this build is concerned, Champion is going to be a lot tankier than Gladiator.

As far as I know, Champion is, with Juggernaut the Class which offers the highest defensive potential. However, as I said one the Gladiator Tree :

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With the addition of 2 more Ascendancy points, the Gladiator have now access to the full Block area, the Charges Generation and the Exploding Bleed, which result in something quite Defensive with nice clear speed bonus.

The goal of the Gladiator setup is to get as much damage as possible without lacking on the defensive side. I never wanted to make it either a full offense or full defense setup...

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Archimtiros wrote:

Second, Rumi's only adds at best 30% to your block chance, 15% with the spell effect, and 13% from the tree, so block is getting better, but still only two-thirds of what it would be in an actual block build. I didn't say that Versatile Combat was worthless, but that the overall block chance is going to be low enough that it's unreliable, which is still true with Rumi's. I also want to point out that you don't even mention Rumi's within your guide, at least not within the gear section, which makes me question whether Rumi's was meant to be used with this build... but that's besides the point.

Once again, you appears to me as someone who didn't went through the whole guide : http://puu.sh/piHbG/4dc0f36b5f.png (from my Google Doc, and didn't just changed it : http://puu.sh/piHdQ/731e6432ca.png (french for "Last modification 7 days ago))
So, that's gone, now you say that the Block Chance will be unreliable. With the Ascendancy Tree and the Rumi's, you end up (when you take a hit) at about 58% Block Chance. Less than 20% away from max block while not using a shield or any other block item. On top of that, as I said in previous reply, I haven't fully tested both build so things may change, new items may be used so....

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Archimtiros wrote:

Lastly, you did not state in your guide that it was meant to have a defensive theme or that it wasn't meant to be purely offensive, outside of your secondary/HC-setup using Champion, which would imply that the Gladiator subclass was meant to be the offensive one; so if that was your goal, you failed to convey it. In fact, you mention an offensive setup multiple times specifically WRT Gladiator. Regardless, that doesn't address the point I brought up: Because you're not actively stacking Block, you're gaining little out of Versatile Combat, whereas you would be gaining a lot out of Blood in the Eyes. While it may not be a purely defensive choice, it's still a directly comparable one as they are mutually exclusive, and in that light, Blood in the Eyes wins hands down.

I'll take the quote I used just a bit before :

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With the addition of 2 more Ascendancy points, the Gladiator have now access to the full Block area, the Charges Generation and the Exploding Bleed, which result in something quite Defensive with nice clear speed bonus.

So I didn't stated my mind of a hybrid Offense / Defense setup ? Are you sure of that ? Because that one sentence proves that you're 100% wrong.
And once again, I answered multiple times since release that things will may changes once every test I have to do are completed, which is, for now, not the case.

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Archimtiros wrote:

I'll close by referencing this;

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Kormir wrote:

So feel free to comment / criticize (as long as it is constructive), I will really appreciate it, any idea is welcomed !

Kind of a strange thing to say if you're going to be a dick about someone raising a valid point and offering a alternative suggestion.

Raising a valid point ? Just now, your post critize me about things that are in my Guide and which, it seems, you never seen of. I'm all but being a dick, I just answer as I feel I need to do to someone who speaks about things without knowing everything about it.
In this answer, I used 2-3 quote of things that are in my guide since the beginning and which you said that weren't mentioned. So every single of your points are seens as non-constructive to me, so I don't see why I'd accept your comment.