[2.4] The Master of Agony - CI / ZO + Tri-Curse Essence Drain / Contagion Trickster

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djnat wrote:

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Regarding ascendancies, I have a mechanics question and a points question. I've recently discovered that some characters that I've only ever done normal and cruel labs on had six points to spend, yet I just finished cruel on my Shadow for this build and have only four total. Did I miss something? Assuming I'm not bugged I'm guessing I might need to first explore all the zones that contain a trial? Right now I haven't progressed past Sarn Encampment in merciless.

Regarding points, does Patient Reaper double dip because of life and energy shield recovery via ZO since life regen converts to ES? This node is both a decent damage boost and a sizable (even without double-dipping) survivability boost. Does WB make mana tight enough to warrant going for it at 6 points instead of anything else?

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ConsPark wrote:

Regarding ascendancies, I have a mechanics question and a points question. I've recently discovered that some characters that I've only ever done normal and cruel labs on had six points to spend, yet I just finished cruel on my Shadow for this build and have only four total. Did I miss something? Assuming I'm not bugged I'm guessing I might need to first explore all the zones that contain a trial? Right now I haven't progressed past Sarn Encampment in merciless.

Regarding points, does Patient Reaper double dip because of life and energy shield recovery via ZO since life regen converts to ES? This node is both a decent damage boost and a sizable (even without double-dipping) survivability boost. Does WB make mana tight enough to warrant going for it at 6 points instead of anything else?

In Standard League, if I'm remembering how it works, it's sufficent to do the lab one single time to get 6 ascendancy points if the character is already over Merciless difficulty.

In a brand-new league like Prophecy, you get 2 points per difficulty. So it's normal that you have 4 points after Normal + Cruel labs.

Looking at how insane the ES regen is when ED is on targets (especially if multiple ones), it's possible Patient Reaper double dips on Life + ES regen via ZO. I'm not sure of this btw.

Btw, I still confirm that going for Walk The Aether should be prioritized because it provides a really insane upgrade when talking about clearspeed, and Patient Reaper should be taken as the last one after Endgame lab.

Weave the Arcane is very good if your gear lacks mana regeneration completely and you don't love running a mana flask (which you must, however, do in no regen maps, regardless of your ascendancy choices).

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djnat wrote:

In Standard League, if I'm remembering how it works, it's sufficent to do the lab one single time to get 6 ascendancy points if the character is already over Merciless difficulty.

In a brand-new league like Prophecy, you get 2 points per difficulty. So it's normal that you have 4 points after Normal + Cruel labs.

Looking at how insane the ES regen is when ED is on targets (especially if multiple ones), it's possible Patient Reaper double dips on Life + ES regen via ZO. I'm not sure of this btw.

Btw, I still confirm that going for Walk The Aether should be prioritized because it provides a really insane upgrade when talking about clearspeed, and Patient Reaper should be taken as the last one after Endgame lab.

Weave the Arcane is very good if your gear lacks mana regeneration completely and you don't love running a mana flask (which you must, however, do in no regen maps, regardless of your ascendancy choices).

I am indeed in Standard. Forgot to mention that. :x I'm going to power through to A4M and maybe that'll net me the points.

Having thought a bit more about it, Walk the Aether is probably better than I first thought because of that 20% cast speed (and attack speed, which just makes WB faster). That counteracts the sluggishness I mentioned earlier if one is really hammering that WB button constantly.

I don't particularly like running a mana flask, but in your experience about how much mana regen would you need on gear to make Weave the Arcane unnecessary?

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ConsPark wrote:

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djnat wrote:

In Standard League, if I'm remembering how it works, it's sufficent to do the lab one single time to get 6 ascendancy points if the character is already over Merciless difficulty.

In a brand-new league like Prophecy, you get 2 points per difficulty. So it's normal that you have 4 points after Normal + Cruel labs.

Looking at how insane the ES regen is when ED is on targets (especially if multiple ones), it's possible Patient Reaper double dips on Life + ES regen via ZO. I'm not sure of this btw.

Btw, I still confirm that going for Walk The Aether should be prioritized because it provides a really insane upgrade when talking about clearspeed, and Patient Reaper should be taken as the last one after Endgame lab.

Weave the Arcane is very good if your gear lacks mana regeneration completely and you don't love running a mana flask (which you must, however, do in no regen maps, regardless of your ascendancy choices).

I am indeed in Standard. Forgot to mention that. :x I'm going to power through to A4M and maybe that'll net me the points.

Having thought a bit more about it, Walk the Aether is probably better than I first thought because of that 20% cast speed (and attack speed, which just makes WB faster). That counteracts the sluggishness I mentioned earlier if one is really hammering that WB button constantly.

I don't particularly like running a mana flask, but in your experience about how much mana regen would you need on gear to make Weave the Arcane unnecessary?

I think a single item with a high regen suffix (50%+ regen) can be enough for the "less regen" maps.

But in NO regen maps the mana potion is the only way, sadly.

djnat - more I play Trickster version more I like it hehe.

Anyway another question about CI Occultist (not LL) version vs CI Trickster :) .

With similar tree and similar high-end gear Occultist should do more damage right? Special if we dont pick up Patient Reaper.

Tooltip dps should be the same but -20% chaos res for enemies means that Occultist will deal like 1/5 more damage right? Or even more then 20% (?)....

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Unk_Particle wrote:

djnat - more I play Trickster version more I like it hehe.

Anyway another question about CI Occultist (not LL) version vs CI Trickster :) .

With similar tree and similar high-end gear Occultist should do more damage right? Special if we dont pick up Patient Reaper.

Tooltip dps should be the same but -20% chaos res for enemies means that Occultist will deal like 1/5 more damage right? Or even more then 20% (?)....

The Occultist tooltip should be very similar, maybe slightly inferior because the starting passives in the shadow area are better than the witch ones for this build, and because of Patient Reaper directly impacting the tooltip.

This minor tooltip difference should be vastly compensated by the Occultist's ascendancies (Void Beacon and Profane bloom). In the end, the Occultist's final damage output should be about 15-20% stronger on average.

But the Trickster's superior clearspeed comes from the insane free cast speed / movement speed / QoL factors he gets from his Ascendancy tree. 36-56% attack speed (faster WB), cast speed (faster ED / contagion combo), free WB cost really make him a fast mapping machine.

And the defenses... those defenses!

- 20% faster start of ES recharge (this is huge, especially when playing HC)
- 5% attack and spell dodge
- 500 free base evasion / 250 free base ES
- 20% more evasion when not on full ES (i.e. when we are actually taking damage!)
- The insane buff to all the regen mechanics after killing (60%!)


For sure, Trickster and Occultist are the best choices to play an Essence Drainer ATM. The Scion's variant has been outmatched in 2.3 because of the 8 ascendancy points available, and because of some Ascendant's nerfs (especially the free pierce chance in the Deadeye sub-ascendancy, lowered from 50% to 30% chance).

Has anyone tried The Beast Fur Shawl? That seems like a good choice if you can get resistances elsewhere, maybe by shooting for a +1 curse Eye of Chayula so you don't need Doedre's Damning.

I'm currently playing a life-based ED/Contagion Trickster (level 89, Princeton_Royale in my character tab), and I have been thoroughly unimpressed with solo clear speed despite having Vulnerability and solid spell damage on my wand, shield, and tree. I only have a 5L and hit about 12-13k ED tooltip with all buffs (I'm using Swift Killer). It'll get me to level 90 no problem, but I heard that ED was good for taking on all content, and I have a hard time imagining that it's going to get that much better with Empower in a 6L and Consuming Dark for poison. Am I missing something?

I'd like to switch over to CI, but it's going to take a ton of time considering the prices of the items I want (Heretic's Veil, ouch), and I don't even think the change would be worth it unless I have a nice 6L chest waiting for me.

I've been tossing some Fuse at this in the meantime:


I realize it has crappy rolls but heard the extra gem levels really help out once you get Empower in the mix... although I'm not so sure it'll be enough help.

The beast fur shawl is a good item, but for CI it has quite low ES (600 is the max roll at full quality). Plus it lacks resistances. This is partially compensated by other stats: the spell damage is decent and the increased recovery rate is very good.

As to the Staff thing: it can be a temporary solution, but if you even think to go CI you can't live without a spirit shield. And using a Staff = not using Consuming Dark = no poison = weaker single target damage.

Your tooltip is quite low, especially if you compare it with the one I showed in the build starting post. ED scales a lot with gear, passives and gem level.

Looking at your character, some things can and must be improved:

- All the gems should be maxed in level and quality
- ED gem should be corrupted until you manage to get a 21/20 one
- Some damage passives are missing: the 2 nodes in the left part of the corruption wheel, Path of the Savant, Ballistic mastery and the two projectile nodes before the jewel socket above Acrobatics
- Potency of Will is quite good to have, it increases the duration of all your skills, including Fortify, Vaal auras and Poison if using a Consuming Dark
- You need better jewels
- You are missing the projectile damage from Brinerot Whalers (if you want to run a life version, Winds of change gloves are the life based alternative in a different gear slot)

With optimized gear and talents (and a 6L obviously) your damage should be three times your tooltip. And with poison.

The difference is huge, so if you are wondering how big your improvement margin is... well, it's very big. :)

Your Flask setup - you don't use Shock Effect Flask removal?

Also wanna ask about passive skill tree. Why you take Melding %life/%energy shield wheel instead of energy shield nodes on Witch starting section. They will give you 38% extra energy shield and 10% reacharge instead of 25% extra ES...

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Unk_Particle wrote:

Your Flask setup - you don't use Shock Effect Flask removal?

Also wanna ask about passive skill tree. Why you take Melding %life/%energy shield wheel instead of energy shield nodes on Witch starting section. They will give you 38% extra energy shield and 10% reacharge instead of 25% extra ES...

No. Brinerot Whalers provide immunity to shocking ground effect and it's more than enough for me.

The Melding cluster is taken because, as it's stated in the build post, there is a jewel socket under it that has to be filled with the Energy from Within unique jewel. So that hybrid life / ES cluter becomes a pure ES cluster after the transition to CI.