Libritannia's Proposition (Work in Progress)

Hello, I Libritannia, LibritanniaES or Some of you may simply know me as Lib.

The Purpose of this thread is to shed light and discus the problems in Path of Exile, Comparing experiences from the past and the present, calculating the future direction PoE. This discussion will contain various quotes and consult my (Emphasis on MY as it is my Personal Experience and expertise's estimation), in game experience to assess and predict possible future outcomes, However I must stress that, I Personally believe, pointing out the problems alone is NOT good enough, to simply state that there is a problem, and refusing to fix and offer possible solutions is sallow and unconstructive, however this thread explores various possible solutions, Any constructive criticism and feedback is more than welcome.

I love Poe, I really do, However I've been having a few problems with PoE for a while now, I know GGG rarely replies on the official forums, the illusion that Ggg Never listen nor give us any feedback on our thoughts is rather prominent (understandably so, since we're many), However I am absolutely sure, I am NOT the only one with these thoughts and problems, We as the community, should share and offer our collective ideas. If I fail, at least I have tried, and offered my services and hopefully possible solutions rather than to suffer alone. On the Worst case scenario, if our ideal's crash and create further impasses, perhaps I can finally break the shackles and finally quit PoE once and for all. (This topic has been a more popular recurring discussion among long term Wraeclast residence, such as me and others players alike)

Background: Portfolio esk (The purpose here, is to express game knowledge and give context and perspective, NOT a egotistic barging right.)


Statistics.
Before we dive into the "End game" topic, Let's take a step back, and discuss some numerical statistics.

As of this moment (05/05/2016), There are currently 735 Accounts with level 100 characters, Multiple level 100 characters are not listed. Player such as myself and others alike, with multiple level 100 characters, the figuresare not truly represented and Accurate, for a more extreme example, player "Fyndel" has 7 Level 100 characters, of each class.

On Standard, in order get on the level ladder, you'd need to be approximately level 93, and 38% of EXP.

Why does these statistics matter?
The statistics shows that, players on the Standard ladder is now higher than ever, This is a inevitable outcome, as characters are never removed from death, as it is the natural course of act of progression. To backtrack, on April 2014, in order to get onto the STD level ladder, requires level 80+.

05/05/2016 STD Public Screenshot

^(A small sample size) Visual display of current standard player levels (Public parties board).

The key word here is "Progression" once you've hit level 100, what else is left to be done? A level 100 character is what we strive and struggle for, yet once you've reached level 100 IS, there any other purpose to play the character anymore? Level 100 characters no longer gain Experience, thus actively playing maps on said character is anti climatic and unrewarding, to YOU and the players you play with, as the currently system of PoE penalizes players that are lower levels than you. (The higher level the player, the more exp they take shared exp pool from other party members) yet if you're already level capped, why should other players play with you and get penalized? It Simply doesn't work.

Progression Case study.

Level 1-100
4 Days, 13 hours.
4*24 +13 =
109 hours Total played.

Total amount of Currency spent 40-50 Exalteds. Excluding gear and equipment. (This number may seem high, however see below)
Note, There was 3 Shavrones wrappings, 2 Kaom's hearts and a void battery that dropped, I've leveled, level 15-20 gems 30 times, in the off hand weapon. If you calculate the price of new popular gems that just came out, level 20 gems are worth 2 around Exalteds each, 2x30 = 60ex alone, excluding the shavs, kaoms, void drops, and ACTUAL currencies and left over map returns that dropped during the maps. I've made decent profit while leveling.

On my main character (Level 100) LibritanniaES, supposedly World first ranked #114 Level 100 character, which took over 350+ exalteds to reach level 100, in the forsakens masters expansion. Leveling even without the Current Domination Zana mod, (Domination Shrines in lvl 78 maps gave 1% exp per map @ level 100)

Current Live 2.1.
In a group with Fast enough clear speed, on average the EXP per hour as follows.
(Yellow Maps)
Waterways 35-40M exp per hour
Springs 30M exp per hour
Plateau 25M exp per hour
Gorges 20M exp per hour

Red Maps
On Average, A Full group of players in the similar level range doing rotation maps, (1 red t15 maps per person)
gains approximately 25M exp per hour.

If you were to duo clear T14 Shrine maps, with insane clear speed, you'd gain a maximum of 25M exp per hour.

^ THIS ABOVE is a HUGE problem. Why? Red T14 and T15 Maps are the "End game" maps per say, however in terms of experience and effort to clear these maps is unrewarding and counter productive, if you were to calculate risk and reward, as Red maps are more dangerous and more valuable cost wise, Why would you run these high end maps when chaining yellow on good title set maps are by far less risky, less hassle with linear path, more cost effective and yields more experience over time? Not to mention how much more abundant yellow maps drop rates are in comparison to Red maps.


Big & Main Topic, Why "End Game"
What is "End Game" and why do we need it? Well to power phrase from dated sources, Chris wilson himself stated, on State of Exile EP:40, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTm-L3KzIzI, GGG hopes to provide a new "End game" for players in act 5, I sincerely hope Chris and GGG did not envision "dried lake" to be a viable source of "End game" shown in the statistics above, proves that players are well above the level 67 zone thresh hold. Another important statement GGG made in State of exile EP40, is that Chris stated that, with the removal of eternal orbs and upping the item mod tier list, hopes to see players create perfect 6t1 weapons in the next 2-3 years.

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/773474/page/1

Brood Twine


Mind Fang


The Very fact that, THESE Items exist mere months (from 2-3 years estimation) after the initial launch new tier list displays the discoloration and lack of vision, as GGG under estimates us the PoE community. (Will further expand this topic, in the Economy topic)

As a case study of personal experience, Since the launch of Diablo 2's expansion, loyal blizzard fans such as meself, and other alike waited patiently for 10-12 years, for sequel the Diablo 3, This is relevant because without a doubt PoE is a direct decedent of Diablo 2 and the dungeon crawler genre.

What were the the biggest issues of Diablo 3?
The Initial launch of Diablo 3 was riddled with various problems, to say the least...
Diablo 3 had great sever issues and error 37 became a meme, (similarly to PoE reddits RIP Sever Thread)
Diablo 3 Lack Depth and player customization choices.
Diablo 3's initial loot system was "gated" and players ended up farming chests & Vases in act 4 (non rewarding gameplay, players would rather spam the same instance multiple times avoiding active combat to farm vases and small chests)
Lots and lots of bugs (Not really worth mentioning)
But MOST of All, Diablo 3 lost the majority of there loyal supporting player base, because there was NO "End Game". - This point is especially important here because, players would get to level 60 (Maximum level at the time) in under 2 days (2 days is Really generous number here), after the initial launch. There was no other purpose to play said character, as characters could respec on the spot, thus there was no need in rerolling the same class. In the end, what it boiled down to was, There was no sense of "Progression", to further elaborate, Players were maximum level, avoiding combat, in order to farm vases and chests.

On the other hand, one of the main contributing factors that kept Diablo 2 alive as long as it did, was because of PVP, Blizzard promised PVP during the Beta market advertising phase, only to delay and deliver it a year + later, in a incomplete state... by that time it was far to late, nobody cared.

IF Leveling 1-100 ONLY takes 109 hours. What do I envision as "End Game"?

proposal









"End Game"
pvp, pve. STD/ HC/ Temp leagues. skill.
lineage 2, vindictus, other games and ofc diablo 3
the experience.



NOTES

"Economy"
** mjonler, carnage heart, exalt/ eternal/ mirror

"Key missing Features"
guilds, trade. the ladder ladder.

"Development attitudes & Future proofing"
Chris, raiz, Reddit, New players and old players, transparency, development manifesto, Failures

"Balance"
uproar, qq, salt, nerf hammer, embrace.

"Mechanics"
beta, testers, skills.

"Supporters & Funding"
Personal Experience, developer history, MTX, payment style.

"Conclusion."
fml, bais

God’s in His heaven,
All’s right with the world!


"Personal dislike & distaste in the scion portrait art."


*** Please Refrain from quoting, The content is not yet completed,***
Many thanks.

reserved

Reserved.

Don't mention pvp, they'll put the thread in the dungeon!

Frame it as HoGM feedback, or PvEify it somehow.

I'll edit this once the proposition is revealed.

Great thread so far, Lib. Keep up the good work, and I really hope one day GGG will do something with all of this information once it is complete.

.

"

Entropic_Fire wrote:

"

1Tokimeki2003 wrote:

Current Live 2.1.
In a group with Fast enough clear speed, on average the EXP per hour as follows.
(Yellow Maps)
Waterways 35-40M exp per hour
Springs 30M exp per hour
Plateau 25M exp per hour
Gorges 20M exp per hour

Red Maps
On Average, A Full group of players in the similar level range doing rotation maps, (1 red t15 maps per person)
gains approximately 25M exp per hour.

If you were to duo clear T14 Shrine maps, with insane clear speed, you'd gain a maximum of 25M exp per hour.

These max rates match what I've seen since 2.1 EXACTLY, it's almost uncanny really.

What do you think about increasing the XP penalty in low tier maps (T11 and under) for level 95+ characters? I don't know how they could do that without making the whole system more confusing, but it seems like the only way to reduce the XP for high level players in low maps without hurting the little guy.

Libritannia is talking about things from a 0.00001% perspective. Just 738 listings (in standard league) of level 100 characters (and in many cases 2 or more are from the same account) after 3+ years is tragically tiny. This is indicative of leveling to the top having a poor (reward+fun)/time balance (too grindy and/or too expensive and/or too build restricted due to the death penalty). Player engagement in trying to hit 100 is simply not good - almost everyone gives up before then.

The exp per hour stats (and 109 hours for 1-100) are based on top gearing top meta build scenarios. Probably some of those builds/mechanics should be nerfed. Probably the monsters need to be more difficult. Probably player damage needs to go down and/or monster hp needs to go up. Power creep is real and we're clearing at basically movement speed, and movement speed has also skyrocketed.

Should the lab be longer because some people can do 2 min runs? I'm near there, doing 4-5 min runs. But if you go back a few pages you see all the 30 min+ runs, 1 hour + runs.

Loot quality has such extreme variance that GGG doesn't seem able to balance the game for players in top gear (or specific combinations of gear) so it becomes a joke. And if GGG adds more variance to loot quality (i.e. makes it harder/longer to get top tier items), then the gear power range they need to balance difficulty around gets even wider. Sorry but I'd actually be doing the opposite and start reducing loot dilution so the balance targets are tighter (reduce dilution and/or bias affix synergies and/or reduce affix tiers/ranges and/or give certain zones targeted drop tables - and add more stuff like cadiro). I'd want to encourage more crafting/item commitment in temp leagues, because right now we just wait until the player moves to standard for the good gear. Taking years to get top gear doesn't make sense if the game is promoting resets/ 3 month leagues.

Anyway, it's not just gear. There's similar efficiency variance between builds. Without a d3 rift style option where difficulty scales with player power, it's very difficult to balance this without making the endgame feel very brutal/punishing for most players. If you look at something like malachai death stats top players snooze through this fight but average player death stats are massive.

GGG needs to increase game/leveling difficulty for top players more intelligently than simply ramping up the XP requirements, ramping up the death penalty, ramping up the level difference penalty, or decreasing the base XP. All that does is simply increase the number of maps you need to 1-shot screen clear and whirl through - it doesn't actually make it more "difficult". And at this point changing the 1-100 dynamics wouldn't really help because many of the top players already have multiple 100 characters.

Ultimately the game needs to be more attractive and engaging to new players, and more motivating (and satisfying!) to continue to play for current players. Really I think the solution here involves making things more fun/accessible on standard and making standard the default league for new players (stuff like perandus mobs in the coast raping new players is completely ridiculous from a retention standpoint). Then tailoring new leagues or custom leagues for veterans. That way, we can have more league rules that aren't targeted to new players, that really ramp difficulty or extend the 1-100 grind in intelligent ways (and maybe some of these extreme leagues should be 6 months, not 3 months).

^Edit: An issue with my suggestion above is, would vets opt in to a more difficult league if all of their maxed characters, maxed gear are on EZ mode standard? GGG could do the reverse, and make standard the vet league, pile on the flashback mods, make crafting T1s more difficult, make leveling harder, etc. But they'd have to optimize temp leagues for new players: make them more accessible, ramp up loot quality & content access (so investing in gear / taking a build to a satisfying power level is optimized for a league that resets in 3 months, rather than being balanced to take years). Problem is I'm not convinced temp leagues are suitable for new players since GGG is using them as a testing ground for new features (that, and starting over from scratch every few months isn't casual friendly - it would be a big jolt to the current casual base if they made standard more attractive to the top 0.00001%). Frankly, I don't think GGG can balance perm leagues for the top 0.00001%. Those players are too good, too efficient. If they're not playing in leagues that reset they'll inevitably run out of things to do.

Bookmarked. Best wishes Lib and thank you for getting things started.