I never want to play the labyrinth ever again.

"

Midgard_Serpent wrote:

The only real negative I can see to adding moderately difficult content to the game that average players will feel compelled to complete is that it will cull the herd to some extent, and make finding people who have valuable items to swindle harder.

I for one will miss them when they all leave to play fruit ninja and clash of clans.

let me clarify this, mister "on probation" troll.

the problem is NOT that the labyrinth is hard, the problem is that the labyrinth is annoying.

the key problem here is iteration time. if you fail at something, the quicker you can repeat it, the better you get at it. and the labyrinth is the exact opposite of this.

"

NeroNoah wrote:

Short answer: correlation doesn't imply casuation.

Correct, never said it did.

"

NeroNoah wrote:

Long answer: you can measure player retention via the area under the graphs (basic calculus). Using that measure, the expansion seems the most successful ever, although it's too early to say, I'd wait one month more. But then, you have the sharp slope.

The more relevant questions are: will that negative slope be constant, will be higher or will be lower in the future? Can you explain it just in terms of labyrinth?

Here there are some factors that are as or more likely to have caused that or modify the analysis:

1)Technical problems

2)Steam sample has bias towards casual. Many could have finished the game at normal and call it quits. Others tried because the new content seems tempting and it wasn't their cup of tea.

3)The behavior for people using the other client could be totally different (specially because they are more able to stomach those changes, being from a time where the game was more punishing).

4)What you see in the forums is the vocal minority, for both sides. It's hardly a sample of the whole population. I see a 50/50 split, and there are merits to both sides. I think it's better to focus on improving the labyrinth. So using that is mere confirmation bias. This happened with Dominus/Act 3x, Atziri/Invasion, Masters, Malachai/Act 4, and even Talisman. The game is still alive even with so many people hating it.

So yeah, you could easily be an outlier. I mean that not as an insult, but the fact is that this kind of stuff is enjoyed by a huge amount of people in other games. It's fairly universal.

Let's just better wait more time before concluding anything.

1) I agree that this would be a contributing factor as well.

2) If you're arguing that the steam statistics would likely have steeper peaks and valleys than people not using steam, then I would agree with that. However, I wouldn't agree that steam customers are either more or less likely to like labyrinth play. I don't think there is anyway to know this?

3) If you're arguing that non-steam customers are more likely to like the labyrinth then I'd disagree with that for the same reason I stated in number 2.

4) I'm not arguing that the game is dead. I'm only arguing that the lab is a different style of game play from the rest of PoE and that a significant number of customers don't enjoy the new game play introduced in the lab. I've further argued that it would be wise for GGG to "change" the game so that people that don't enjoy the lab (with ascendancy-point-rewards gated behind it) are not so turned off by it that they don't play PoE anymore. I've also stated that I have a selfish interest in this being done. How this might be done is a topic in many other threads. I don't think I've commentted on that topic myself.

"

_Eddi_ wrote:

the problem is NOT that the labyrinth is hard, the problem is that the labyrinth is annoying.

the key problem here is iteration time. if you fail at something, the quicker you can repeat it, the better you get at it. and the labyrinth is the exact opposite of this.

Y'know, I'm glad to see that someone else around here recognizes the problem here regarding iteration cycles. As much as I hate fighting Malachi, I can deal with it because dying just punts you outside the door. I can immediately get back into the fight. But today when I fought Izaro round 3, got him to a sliver of HP and then slipped up and died, I just shut off the game. Yes, Izaro is hard, but that wouldn't be so bad if the iteration cycle wasn't downright sadistic. When I first did labyrinth, it was novel and fun, I took my time and explored up to the first Izaro fight. Then I realized what I was in for, and the labyrinth suddenly wasn't so fun anymore. Now it was a slog to get through just for another shot at Izaro.

I feel like a broken record but it bears repetition: Izaro and the labyrinth do not mix. The labyrinth is just more shit between you and the actual challenge, it's just easy enough to be pointless but just deadly enough that a mistake will end you. The two need to be separated or, at the very least, Izaro needs checkpoints or a huge nerf. You simply cannot have iteration cycles this massive for something this hard.

"

Turtledove wrote:

Correct, never said it did.

You made a relationship between two variables via graph, so you made that mistake.

"

Turtledove wrote:

1) I agree that this would be a contributing factor as well.

2) If you're arguing that the steam statistics would likely have steeper peaks and valleys than people not using steam, then I would agree with that. However, I wouldn't agree that steam customers are either more or less likely to like labyrinth play. I don't think there is anyway to know this?

3) If you're arguing that non-steam customers are more likely to like the labyrinth then I'd disagree with that for the same reason I stated in number 2.

4) I'm not arguing that the game is dead. I'm only arguing that the lab is a different style of game play from the rest of PoE and that a significant number of customers don't enjoy the new game play introduced in the lab. I've further argued that it would be wise for GGG to "change" the game so that people that don't enjoy the lab (with ascendancy-point-rewards gated behind it) are not so turned off by it that they don't play PoE anymore. I've also stated that I have a selfish interest in this being done. How this might be done is a topic in many other threads. I don't think I've commentted on that topic myself.

About 2: most good players come from the beta times. Good players tend to be better informed so it's a reasonable assumption to say they discovered the game earlier. Anyway, just guesses.

About 3: same assumption than before. Feel free to disagree.

About 4: you are not claiming the game is dead but you are commiting some mistakes (steam charts!) that those who do. See the list of bosses I have written? Many people have said the same than you about other features in the game. It's a bad precedent for GGG to discard stuff (removing ascendancy points would destroy the risk-reward balance of the labyrinth, so people would skip it as many side missions when rushing) because of a minority. I say, let's criticize it, modify it and you should adapt. I'll bet people that hate the labyrinth because of the traps is a minority (if I'm wrong, GGG will change it for sure, they piss off people but they are not dumb), although there are a lot of people that hate some features of it (for example, the forced hardcore experience, or Izaro). There are some compromises to be made and many threads are made by reactionaries. This has happened before and will happen again.

"

AkuTenshiiZero wrote:

"

_Eddi_ wrote:

the problem is NOT that the labyrinth is hard, the problem is that the labyrinth is annoying.
...
I feel like a broken record but it bears repetition: Izaro and the labyrinth do not mix. The labyrinth is just more shit between you and the actual challenge, it's just easy enough to be pointless but just deadly enough that a mistake will end you. The two need to be separated or, at the very least, Izaro needs checkpoints or a huge nerf. You simply cannot have iteration cycles this massive for something this hard.

I ascended on two characters. I see where you are coming from. The question I have is have you considered that the Labyrinth IS the challenge? Honestly I am not a fan of the Labyrinth, but I have a different opinion than yours. Izaro is easy...the challenge IS the Labyrinth. I feel like it is intentionally designed that way.

Also from a design perspective, it seems that the process of "Ascending" is meant to be difficult with long iterations. GGG seems to want to test our patience AND skill to ascend.

I know everyone seems to think that it is their right to Ascend simply for playing the Ascendancy patch, but I would argue that GGG don't feel the same way.

They want Ascending to be distinguished and feel special. Then know some players will breeze through it and some will never complete it. Their target seems to be that middle ground that ascend because "they never gave up." Which I would argue is the majority of the player base (middle bell curve).

Just a thought.

"

NeroNoah wrote:

About 4: you are not claiming the game is dead but you are commiting some mistakes (steam charts!) that those who do. See the list of bosses I have written? Many people have said the same than you about other features in the game. It's a bad precedent for GGG to discard stuff (removing ascendancy points would destroy the risk-reward balance of the labyrinth, so people would skip it as many side missions when rushing) because of a minority. I say, let's criticize it, modify it and you should adapt. I'll bet people that hate the labyrinth because of the traps is a minority (if I'm wrong, GGG will change it for sure, they piss off people but they are not dumb), although there are a lot of people that hate some features of it (for example, the forced hardcore experience, or Izaro). There are some compromises to be made and many threads are made by reactionaries. This has happened before and will happen again.

I have not proposed getting rid of the labyrinth nor getting rid of the ascendancy points. The problem for me is that the lab is not fun and I'm not going to play it for the ascendancy points. They slightly nerfed some aspects and then made some nice buffs with ascendancy points that more than compensate for the nerfs, at least in general. I don't think it is reasonable for me to play much more unless I have access to the ascendancy points. I have paid between 5X to 10X more for PoE than any other game that I have ever previously played. Unfortunately I can't continue playing the game I paid for because it's an online game and the old version is no longer available. So all I can do is try to let GGG understand my situation. If they feel that enough other customers feel the same way then perhaps they'll make some changes. If not then I'll just have to find another game to play, oh well. Thanks for being a sounding board. :-)

Technically your old version is ignoring the labyrinth as it is. You want the points, but you don't want to play the labyrinth, that's your real problem. I think there is no happy solution (if GGG made possible to bypass the labyrinth, it will be really costly, think in the exalted cost range; those points are really that valuable that you should make an effort for them).

"

Prisus wrote:

Also from a design perspective, it seems that the process of "Ascending" is meant to be difficult with long iterations. GGG seems to want to test our patience AND skill to ascend.

I cannot even begin to describe how toxic a design choice that is. This is not Zynga. "Test of patience" is never something you want said about your game.

"

Prisus wrote:

I know everyone seems to think that it is their right to Ascend simply for playing the Ascendancy patch, but I would argue that GGG don't feel the same way.

First of all, I really wish that people would stop treating Ascendancy like it's a piece of gear. You want to farm Atziri for exclusive uniques? Fine by me, I don't care. But this is a direct character buff. Ascendancy classes are a core part of the game now, whether GGG intended it or not, and future content is going to be designed with Ascendancy in mind. Malachi was not designed to be scaled for people with Atziri gear, but the next boss will more than likely be scaled for people with Ascendancy points. As will the next, and the next, etc.

"

Prisus wrote:

They want Ascending to be distinguished and feel special. Then know some players will breeze through it and some will never complete it. Their target seems to be that middle ground that ascend because "they never gave up." Which I would argue is the majority of the player base (middle bell curve).

Just a thought.

The second point is that this will further divide the community. There is already a schism between the hardcore and the casual, and GGG clearly favors the former. Looking back at that graph from earlier in the thread, I would argue that the dropoff after new content is mostly casual players leaving the game. There is a reason why the general attitude around here is "weed out the casual scum," this place is already an echo chamber of hardcore players. Thing is, this is a F2P game, and F2P games by their very nature draw more casual players.

This all comes back around to one of my old arguments: If you want a challenge, play Hardcore mode. Standard should be the casual mode. If they actually toned down the difficulty in Standard, I'd be perfectly happy and unashamed to play it, because I don't play this for the difficulty, I play it for the versatile build system. Different types of gamers look for different things, and GGG almost was willing to cater to both sides separately until they shit the bed by forcing hardcore aspects into the game universally.

I apologize in advance to all that already read my suggestion in one of mine earlier posts here on Forum and related to the same subject.

I do it in hope that repeating it may increase chances to reach GGG "ears" and easy and elegantly solve all heat and negativity related to Lab and ascendancy points gated behind.

I do ofc also because I like PoE but prefer to play it the way how it was untill this patch. Don't force HC aspect on people that don't like it and don't force them to go into content that they do not see as fun.
For all those that fails to see how this may be sort of blackmailing like "do something extremly boring, hard or time wasting in order to get those for build defining and most desireable points, I repeat, I do not opose you have and continue to enjoy this game as it is in your own league. That being said brings me to my suggestion.

As ve already have different leagues for PvP and PvE, HC and SC, even separate races with different challenges and timeframes, I really think that GGG should leave Lab as it is for all players that like that kind of challenge. But at the same time I would really appreciate if GGG opens one separate league for all other of us that because of whatever of hundreds of reasons (hate / dislike ascendancy points being locked behind lab, lag, bad computers, connection and so on.

I really don't care if GGG gives even greater rewards for Elite and HC players on their respective legagues as long they open a place where I and all others that dislike Lab could enjoy the game on the way we were used to and I am reasonaby confident that this would be welcomed by many of us.



Cheers

"

NeroNoah wrote:

Technically your old version is ignoring the labyrinth as it is. You want the points, but you don't want to play the labyrinth, that's your real problem. I think there is no happy solution (if GGG made possible to bypass the labyrinth, it will be really costly, think in the exalted cost range; those points are really that valuable that you should make an effort for them).

It is absolutely not true that the labyrinth can be ignored and then I have my old game. They have nerfed some aspects of the old game to at least semi-compensate for the ascendancy points buff. And all future content is going to have the ascendancy point buff taken into account as the new content is designed and implemented. It is reasonable to argue that Atziri is optional or Merciless Malachai is optional or many other pieces are optional. It is not reasonable to say that the ascendancy points are optional.

The ascendancy point buff is NOT worth doing the not fun labyrinth. I would rather go play another another game. So I am not going to "make the effort for them". I play the game for fun, not any other reason. So it doesn't make sense to me to go through boring tedious content in the game.

There are many potential solutions to how the labyrinth could remain in the game but the ascendancy points are not gated behind the labyrinth. Many solutions that could be easily implemented without significantly detracting from the labyrinth for those that enjoy playing that part of the game.