This probably has been posted somewhere...but...rebuff LW speed&Leapslam distance?

Personaly I think it's a good thing that they tunned down some of the movement skills. I think Whirling blade should be the next to be tunned down soon.

"

Saltychipmunk wrote:

So i am confused, we have a rather large thread about clear speed meta being poison to the game

so instead of bringing the major culprits behind that meta (in this case WB) down to a realistic level

this thread instead wants to improve all of the other movement skills and compound the issue of clear speed meta?



not sure if i like that idea.

We already are running into the issue where the other movment mechanics in the game are getting over shadowed


, who needs ms on gear/ tree or QS flasks when you can just zip around on attack speed alone?

Alright, from my POV:

"

You need to realize that Moving Around is a separate issue from clear speed.

actually, it is not.

very simple way to prove this too. try to clear a map with said high damage builds without it and with it and see the difference.


the fact is that most builds kill packs instantly ( especially when playing solo where monster hp is not bloated) sure you have your coc builds doing millions of dps carrying a whole team.

but they generally clear just as fast alone as they do in a full group just because they over kill so much.

you can only kill a pack so fast. there is an actual cap to this called "instantly" after which the equation turns entirely "how fast can i get to the next pack and instantly kill them?"


This is the core issue with the clear speed meta. we already have solved the kill monsters quickly issue. fundamentally the clear speed meta is not about dps , its about communicating that dps.

vaal spark isnt the best because it does the most damage , compared to coc discharge its damage is pathetic as is everything. but it beats the shit out coc discharge, why? because it reaches multiple screens away and you can literally WB the entire map without really needing to stop.

mechanically its ALL about movement. Movement skills are a HUGE HUGE part of this equation.


your choice in how you move between packs can heavily influence your clear speed, this isnt seconds, this is isnt even a minute or two , this is the difference of several minutes

this can cut map clears in half , all on what movement skill you use or dont use.

@saltychipmunk

Either you did not read my post thoroughly or you failed to understand the point I was getting at, because what you have you've done in your post is take a snippet from my post and addressed it out of the context in which the words were used.

Clear speed is a big category, affect by many things mainly: Nature of the offensive skill in question, Mob strength, and of course movement/getting around.

BUT ALL OF THOSE, are SEPARATE Catagories. EACH of them is an individual issue to be looked at.

What you are saying by tying the two together is akin to saying:

You can't have both pepperoni toppings on a pizza And Mushrooms toppings. Where the pepperonis is to represent movement speed, and mushrooms to present balanced clearing speed. Which is absolutely ludicrous.

You can absolutely have fast movement in the game and still have balanced clearing by adjusting the other factors which also affect clear speed.

Like I've been trying to get across, Movement, referring to the act of moving or getting around, is a standalone category on it's own and should not be tied together with anything else. If you want to talk clear speed, that is something else.

i prefer WB because it is the only movement skill at the moment that enables me to move fast out of danger. there are so many things in the game that leave you very little time to react. the high atk speed of WB is really the only good counter in those situations, while LS or LW are to slow and kind of require me to anticipate certain attacks, since GGG doesn't believe in telegraphing all that much, that can lead to a fast and surprising death if your reaction time is not within 1 second for once.
so...for me personally the choice is not entirely about clear speed, if at all.

"

Feins_ wrote:

i prefer WB because it is the only movement skill at the moment that enables me to move fast out of danger. there are so many things in the game that leave you very little time to react. the high atk speed of WB is really the only good counter in those situations, while LS or LW are to slow and kind of require me to anticipate certain attacks, since GGG doesn't believe in telegraphing all that much, that can lead to a fast and surprising death if your reaction time is not within 1 second for once.
so...for me personally the choice is not entirely about clear speed, if at all.

^2nd this. Nice Post.

I am advocating for the a buff to LW & leap slam rather than a nerf to whirling blades because simply nerfing whirling blades to make it as slow as the other 2 skills is not going to be helping with gameplay, nor would it make it any more fun. The main purpose of mobility is to get around, help dodge hits, kite, etc.

When you are at say a .40 second cast time lightning warp and using it to dodge fatal blows, realize that, in real-time you are going to be standing in original location for about .6 - 1 second from the time you realize a fatal blow is about to occur to the time you actually warp. As addressed, in the original post, this is due to the fact that one has to account for the reaction time of players themselves and the remaining duration of the straight-line travel. This real-time warp delay is exacerbated during tough situations especially if you are playing graphic heavy builds where one can easily get tunnel visioned by all the extra effects and heat of the moment.

"

SIQI wrote:

When you are at say a .40 second cast time lightning warp and using it to dodge fatal blows, realize that, in real-time you are going to be standing in original location for about .6 - 1 second from the time you realize a fatal blow is about to occur to the time you actually warp. As addressed, in the original post, this is due to the fact that one has to account for the reaction time of players themselves and the remaining duration of the straight-line travel.

this is exactly what got me killed a few times. i was trying to warp out of danger and in the next second i find myself dead at the location i was trying to get away from, even though i was at target location already. on top of that LW is still kind of bugged, or whatever it is...sometimes the game does not even recognize i was trying warp somewhere. this never ever happend with WB, which of course makes it the prefered movement skill, at least for me.
so..."adjusting" WB would indeed be bad choice.

I agree, un nerf both skills, fix them up, put them back to how they used to be.


My first char in this game was melee, I had whirling blades, hit endgame with 2k life, 2k cleave dps, 4k dual strike dps, 4k armour. Now my main life melee has 120k reave, 5,500 life, legacy coil, 22k evasion, phase acro... You know what hasnt changed? whirling blades, thats just about the only thing that hasnt changed since day 1, the reason I clear maps faster is because literally everything else changed. I have way more defenses, way more damage, Im using a far superior attack skill.

20k - 30k dps non crit arc builds with warp were clearing maps as fast as whirling blades 80k dps crit arc builds are right now. Reason is that 30k dps instantly killed everything same way 80k does, blades is faster in gorge type maps, warp was faster in shrine type maps. Nothing has really changed for clearspeeds outside of vaal spark existing and more skills are able to cross that line where dps is fairly irrelevant as everything just melts on contact.

Bows cant use blades, high cast speed warp or slam, bows have been clearing at roughly the same speeds since harbingers and vaal haste were added to the game. Are bows too slow to keep up with the "current speed meta (lol)"? not really, bows are probably the all round most powerful option in the game. So how much is whirling blades causing a new level of clearspeed meta when bows are still stupidly strong in the meta and nothing about whirling blades speed has changed in years? Undoubtedly blades is faster, but is that hurting builds like bows that cant use it? I dont really see a case for that.


Theres a clearspeed meta that has been there since day 1 of open beta when people started racing for number 1 ladder positions. The idea that theres some new sort of clearspeed meta feels to me like the new hipster protalk forum replacement meme for "is the build atziri viable?". Its something people talk about a lot, has little relevance to the way most people play the game, usually used as some kind of suspect trump card in a debate about builds that has lost all touch with reality and become an ego boxing match fought with increasing degrees of irrelevant nonsense people have borrowed from the talk around town. Its like WMDs, just keep talking about it and before long more people than not are convinced beyond all doubt its a thing, it simply must be a thing or we wouldnt all be talking about it. I look at builds on the forums, I browse all the streams, I see vaal spark going crazy fast and then a load of builds that clear roughly about as fast as good builds have been clearing maps for the last 2 years.

At best i think you can argue increasing build diversity and player knowledge has lead to more players reaching the speeds that have been in the game for years, perhaps significantly more. But lets not get carried away here with the clearspeed memes importance and how this has to do with whirling blades which just about the only factor in clearspeeds that hasnt changed in the last 3 years.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

You know what hasnt changed? whirling blades, thats just about the only thing that hasnt changed since day 1, the reason I clear maps faster is because literally everything else changed.

WB literally got sped up 20% in 2.0 in addition to lockstep making it actually reliably usable unlike during years of predictive.

"

pneuma wrote:

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

You know what hasnt changed? whirling blades, thats just about the only thing that hasnt changed since day 1, the reason I clear maps faster is because literally everything else changed.

WB literally got sped up 20% in 2.0 in addition to lockstep making it actually reliably usable unlike during years of predictive.

I wasnt aware it got 20% increased speed, that change obviously passed me by, fair points. I certainly didnt notice any change in the game. I dont even use faster attacks gems in blades for melee builds, I dont consider the speed of blades when I look at attack speed on the tree. I didnt feel any speed difference in 2.0 that wasnt outside of the random amount of aps variance I get from differing iterations of my setup that come when they change the tree and I have to respec.

Point taken that it did actually get a speed buff I wasnt aware of, and Im not sure why they actually did that because I certainly didnt notice though I use the skill extensively, and it certainly didnt need it. When what seemed like my entire guild switched to whirling blades in 2.0 no one mentioned a speed increase or a lack of desync, warp was broken in lockstep, some of them stayed predictive for a while to hang on to warp and eventually decided lockstep was too good to sacrifice so they went blades. Those 2 points are fair points but I dont recognise them as being central to the discussions or reasoning I have witnessed during the mass switch to whirling blades. Broken warp and fortify are the 2 issues Ive seen people citing repeatedly, and the fortify part of that is a bit of a fools errand imo, or perhaps symptomatic of players who have so little regard for the danger of mobs that even on their ranged class no matter if its warp or blades they are going to jump into melee range of mobs in a careless fashion regardless. The faceroll nature of the game and their dps levels, might as well get fortify if im just going to constantly push into the middle of packs anyway.

If we want to be real about clearspeed isnt that the issue? Dps is extreme, mobs are like paper, your character rarely even takes damage, its been like that for ages. Just fly into packs of mobs and instantly destroy everything because its faceroll. Thats been the trend for an awfully long time, its not something new in 2.0 caused by whirling blades. 2.0 causing whirling blades to be the only functional movement skill in the game caused whirling blades to be used by everyone who could use it, who also happened to be utterly facerolling the game because the dps power creep means theyre all doing somewhere between 10x and 100x as much damage as they did in open beta.


Honestly you could take a faster attacks gems worth of speed off whirling blades and it wouldnt effect any of my melee builds as Id just stick in the gem. How much % attack speed you end up with, did you get the 16% gloves and the 12% node there or did u not get that node and get an 8% aps glove... does it matter? Is the answer to that important to the clearspeed of your character via whirling blades? I would argue that its totally insignificant. They could slow blades down a little, no one would even notice, they could slow it down a lot, people would put in faster gems and then not notice. I guess some casters who already need the faster attacks gem due to a lack of it on the tree would notice. Well if warp is still broken and they have no alternative are they going to stop using it? No. Is that going to slow the game down a lot? At all? I dont feel like it is. Melee builds now use FA gem, are going same speed. Bows/wanding, wernt using it anyway, going at same speed, the multitude of spell builds not using dagger blades, no change...

you can still do it, but be real, the effect is not to bring down the clearspeeds of the overall game because that will not happen. The effect is to nerf certain casters who are using whirling blades. If thats a desired effect then sure, by all means nerf away, but we have to be aware thats what we are talking about. We also have to take into account that warp is broken, the skill they should be using doesnt even work. If people want to single out examples of these builds and make a case that their clearspeed is something unacceptable then lets see these dagger blades spell builds and have that discussion about nerfing the clearspeeds of a certain specific subset of builds via nerfing blades. Vaal Spark is an obvious example, but theres no point nerfing Vaal Spark alone via nerfing whirling blades that is used by a lot of people, you would just nerf vaal spark. What are the other spell builds that are going at an unacceptable pace via WB? I havent seen any, doesnt mean they dont exist. I would honestly like to see examples because I try and keep an eye around town and Im not seeing anything going on that couldnt have been matched by a warping caster 18 months ago, except vaal spark. I dont play any whirling casters so I have absolutely no vested interest in the situation, if they exist and they need nerfed then sure, nerf away as far as Im concerned.

I would argue thematically spell casters shouldnt be using blades, and I would like to see a change of that sort purely for that reason. But not while theres no alternative, while warp is still out of action they dont have the alternative that they really should be using instead. Obviously thats a personal take on what I think a caster should and shouldnt be doing on principal, i make no balance argument for it.

We can say blade generally has this advantage or that advantage and hence needs nerfed, well the proof of that advantage is in the amount of people playing it, if people dont have a choice because the alternative of warp that was designed for their class is broken how can you judge anything by that? Blades does have advantage over warp on flat open ground but warp has many advantages in real day to day mapping with walls and gaps and ledges. We cant even judge how much it would be appropriate to nerf WB by because the alternative we should be judging it against has been in the repair shop for what, 9 months now? I dont even know how long its been, too long.