[2.2] Poor Man's guide to big wand CoC - 200K Dps and Atziri on a 5L
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MortalKombat3 wrote:
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AngryCustard wrote:
Seconly again, Barrage GMP is amazing and it delivers twice as many proc's with GMP vs without it. Without trying to brow beat you, you're wrong.
Barrage interacts with LMP/GMP differently than other attack skills do. Each extra projectile adds +15% to base attack time for Barrage. So, with GMP, its base attack time will be 160% of normal. Essentially, that means GMP puts 37.5% LESS attack speed penalty. So, no, it doesnt delivers twice as many procs. Actually, it delivers only 25% more procs. And it brings 25% less damage penalty to spells. So, versus single target, GMP brings ZERO advantage.
Adding extra projectiles to barrage will make it take longer than your attack time, as each one takes time to fire.
That is fine, it may take longer, but overall you gain and increase in attack speed by 25% as you have mentioned. What you haven't mentioned is the 10% increased attack speed from the quality on GMP, or the fact that you have less breaks between barrages. So in order to get 16 crits on a single target without GMP, you require 4 barrage's. 4 attacks each with a break. With GMP that is only 2 attacks, with 1 single break. A huge benefit right there, even singly target with your 25% less damage.
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MortalKombat3 wrote:
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AngryCustard wrote:
As for your skill tree, I kind of hate it. You're giving up a power charge, and the power charge spell damage node, yes you gain twin terrors, but over all I feel that build losses a lot given the loss of jewel sockets. and Blood Magic is kind of terrible for CoC, as you want to be running Aura's for added damage.
But i cant use EE with Anger or Heralds - it simply wont work because of added damage to all spells. Sure, BM alone may be worth it, but i wont use auras with EE anyway, so, why not going BM? All i lose is a bit of AS/MS from Haste and defences for Arctic Armour. Also, BM allows using powerful Clear Mind jewel, to "fix" spelldamage a bit.
Power charge is sweet, but i feel you take too much nodes just to grab it. It's just +50% increased critical chance, after all.
You gave no feedback on EE, btw.
there is no way that 40% increased spell damage can make up for the damage gained by Anger and Herald of Thunder. Also how are you going to make EE work without Anger and HoT? You need some elemental damage on your attack, your barrage or kinetic blast to cause the EE. By running HoT and Anger, you make the mobs weak to cold with your barrage as they do Fire and Lightning damage. Then your cold spells hit the mobs effected by EE for lots more damage. EE is ok, but I personally think you're better off without it.
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MortalKombat3 wrote:
About jewel sockets - you actually took 2 jewel sockets for 3 skill points each (2x stat node and jewel). When you have really GREAT jewels (4 desired rolls), that will work, but decent jewels arent worth your 3 points. You should note that as well.
Jewel Sockets are easily as good as notables. You can get life, mana, damage, resist etc. I personally run life and dual damage Jewels which make up over 100% increased spell damage and around 40% increased life. Hard to pass that up...
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MortalKombat3 wrote:
Spoiler
And about your skill tree. It is not optimal.
For example, if you take another path from Acrobatics to Vaal pact, then you replace +10 strength for +10% projectile damage, and the latter is generally better (unless you REALLY require those 10 str for stat requirements, but you cant advice that for "general" tree).
You took 4x(5%life) nodes here and there, but missed "Written in Blood" cluster, that gives the same +20% life AND +10 strength/+25% ES for free. It also opens decent Doom Cast cluster.
You exit Scion's area down through +5 str and +18 all resist path, but instead, you could get +32% projectile damage. Generally, +32% projectile damage is better, unless you badly need those +18 all res to cap your resists with your gear.
You also exit Scion's area through +28% spell damage and +5int path, but instead, you could get +13% attack speed. Those are kinda close, actually, but if you dont need that extra +5 int for stat requirements, i feel attack speed ath will be better. It also opens 3x10% crit multiplier nodes, which are decent for extra DPS.
There is a nice THroatseeker cluster, that offers +36% crit multiplier for 3 points.
I have doubts about Acuity cluster, too. It isnt bad (you have just +62% sccuracy without it), but isnt really good either.
I already told about 3-point jewels - they arent for everyone.
And at last, i find +8% attack speed for 1 point from helping Kraityn in Cruel worth it. You have low %increased attack speed total.
I fixed the Inefficiencies in my tree already and will post up the updated. I just haven't bothered to post that here yet.
As for taking attack speed over spell damage, you're crazy, you can end up attacking too fast and that means that you actually mix proc's. I want my attack time to be ever so slightly under 20 hits per second so that I do not go over. Missing out on 24% spell damage is pretty massive, and spending the skill point on Kraityn cruel seems wasted when you get so much attack speed on gear. If you are worried about attack speed take attack speed from rings and gloves etc. Don't waste valuable points on your tree.
I take the resist path on Scion coz this is a 'cheap' build. It makes maxing out your resists infinitely easier. If you are able to get your resists maxed without those nodes then sure change to the damage side. But this is a cheap build so that can be hard to do without them.
One thing you were also missing in your EE tree was Snowforged. That combined with the added power charge easily makes going to the witch tree worthwhile instead of going to get twin terrors.
I do like your new tree with the less jewels and more life. That is something I may consider. Except that I would take all the spell damage nodes on the exit of scion not the atack speed. The added survive from the extra life might be worth while. I will have a play but I already have 5.6K life.
That is fine, it may take longer, but overall you gain and increase in attack speed by 25% as you have mentioned. What you haven't mentioned is the 10% increased attack speed from the quality on GMP, or the fact that you have less breaks between barrages. So in order to get 16 crits on a single target without GMP, you require 4 barrage's. 4 attacks each with a break. With GMP that is only 2 attacks, with 1 single break. A huge benefit right there, even singly target with your 25% less damage.
I'd rather link LMP then... Or Increased Critical Strikes...
I like Barrage because it doesnt need GMP/LMP, so i can free 1 slot. It's very important. With LMP/GMP, i think i'd rather use Kinetic Blast...
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AngryCustard wrote:
there is no way that 40% increased spell damage can make up for the damage gained by Anger and Herald of Thunder. Also how are you going to make EE work without Anger and HoT? You need some elemental damage on your attack, your barrage or kinetic blast to cause the EE. By running HoT and Anger, you make the mobs weak to cold with your barrage as they do Fire and Lightning damage. Then your cold spells hit the mobs effected by EE for lots more damage. EE is ok, but I personally think you're better off without it.
Anger actually offers 12-19% damage boost to lvl20 spells (depending on spell, usually - around 17%). HoT/HoI offer around a half of that (without quality). It's additive to flat spell damage on weapons.
Sure, auras give a bit more DPS (just a bit, btw, not "a lot"), but BM removes all limitations with manacost... And it has nice life nodes behind it too.
If you run Anger, you add fire damage to all your attacks and spells. you cant use EE with fire spells with that. With HoI, you cant use EE with cold spells. And with HoT, you cant just equip a ring/amulet with added lightning damage and proc EE with trigger skill.
I thought about using EE with Fireball + Arctic Breath, so they proc EE for each other.
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AngryCustard wrote:
As for taking attack speed over spell damage, you're crazy, you can end up attacking too fast and that means that you actually mix proc's. I want my attack time to be ever so slightly under 20 hits per second so that I do not go over. Missing out on 24% spell damage is pretty massive, and spending the skill point on Kraityn cruel seems wasted when you get so much attack speed on gear. If you are worried about attack speed take attack speed from rings and gloves etc. Don't waste valuable points on your tree.
Have you taken into consideration that GMP barrage actually takes it longer to fire than it should? I will make my own calculations there, and post results.
Attack speed on rings takes valuable suffix for just 6-7% AS. I'd rather get +8% AS for skill point, but also get a good suffix like +40 resist or +40 to stat, etc...
About Twin Terrors - it's +125% crit, on contrary, path to power charge gives +80% crit but both to trigger and spells. After some thoughts, i've decided both paths have pros and cons, still deciding which is better....
Edit - about Attack Speed caps.
Barrage releases its projectiles with interval, equal to 0.15 your attack time (it doesnt matter if you link GMP or not). The cooldown on CoC is 0.05 sec. That means you shouldnt get more than 3 APS. Assuming you dual-wield wands with 1.65 base APS, you'll reach that cap at +65% increased attack speed.
It seems, all depends upon your gear. Cant say for sure
That is fine, it may take longer, but overall you gain and increase in attack speed by 25% as you have mentioned. What you haven't mentioned is the 10% increased attack speed from the quality on GMP, or the fact that you have less breaks between barrages. So in order to get 16 crits on a single target without GMP, you require 4 barrage's. 4 attacks each with a break. With GMP that is only 2 attacks, with 1 single break. A huge benefit right there, even singly target with your 25% less damage.
I'd rather link LMP then... Or Increased Critical Strikes...
I like Barrage because it doesnt need GMP/LMP, so i can free 1 slot. It's very important. With LMP/GMP, i think i'd rather use Kinetic Blast...
Sure if you can afford mana on kinetic blast or run blood magic then go for it. Personally I think you're silly doing this. Also you're forgetting that in order to clear packs of mobs you actually need the coverage from GMP. Something hasn't been mention once yet, is that when mapping you need to cover large areas with projectiles this is done with GMP.
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MortalKombat3 wrote:
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AngryCustard wrote:
there is no way that 40% increased spell damage can make up for the damage gained by Anger and Herald of Thunder. Also how are you going to make EE work without Anger and HoT? You need some elemental damage on your attack, your barrage or kinetic blast to cause the EE. By running HoT and Anger, you make the mobs weak to cold with your barrage as they do Fire and Lightning damage. Then your cold spells hit the mobs effected by EE for lots more damage. EE is ok, but I personally think you're better off without it.
Anger actually offers 12-19% damage boost to lvl20 spells (depending on spell, usually - around 17%). HoT/HoI offer around a half of that (without quality). It's additive to flat spell damage on weapons.
Sure, auras give a bit more DPS (just a bit, btw, not "a lot"), but BM removes all limitations with manacost... And it has nice life nodes behind it too.
If you run Anger, you add fire damage to all your attacks and spells. you cant use EE with fire spells with that. With HoI, you cant use EE with cold spells. And with HoT, you cant just equip a ring/amulet with added lightning damage and proc EE with trigger skill.
I thought about using EE with Fireball + Arctic Breath, so they proc EE for each other.
12-19% MORE not increased. Your 40% increase isn't going to compete with that. I know how EE works, and basically it is a bad idea for CoC, ideally you want to be doing all three elemental damage types with CoC so you can shock, freeze/chill and ignite enemies. Making EE annoying coz you basically make all mobs resistant to your damage. You might be able to work it so that you're hitting in stages. But honestly you're going to have inconsistent results with it so avoid it.
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MortalKombat3 wrote:
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AngryCustard wrote:
As for taking attack speed over spell damage, you're crazy, you can end up attacking too fast and that means that you actually mix proc's. I want my attack time to be ever so slightly under 20 hits per second so that I do not go over. Missing out on 24% spell damage is pretty massive, and spending the skill point on Kraityn cruel seems wasted when you get so much attack speed on gear. If you are worried about attack speed take attack speed from rings and gloves etc. Don't waste valuable points on your tree.
Have you taken into consideration that GMP barrage actually takes it longer to fire than it should? I will make my own calculations there, and post results.
Attack speed on rings takes valuable suffix for just 6-7% AS. I'd rather get +8% AS for skill point, but also get a good suffix like +40 resist or +40 to stat, etc...
About Twin Terrors - it's +125% crit, on contrary, path to power charge gives +80% crit but both to trigger and spells. After some thoughts, i've decided both paths have pros and cons, still deciding which is better....
You haven't taken into account that that 80% chance to crit comes with 24% increase spell damage from power charges and 33% increased fire damage + 43% increased cold damage. For cold spells that is a 67% increased damage. You lose that by going for twin terrors to gain 45% increased crit chance... The numbers don't stack up.
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MortalKombat3 wrote:
Edit - about Attack Speed caps.
Barrage releases its projectiles with interval, equal to 0.15 your attack time (it doesnt matter if you link GMP or not). The cooldown on CoC is 0.05 sec. That means you shouldnt get more than 3 APS. Assuming you dual-wield wands with 1.65 base APS, you'll reach that cap at +65% increased attack speed.
It seems, all depends upon your gear. Cant say for sure
All I am saying is that you need to be very careful you do not end up with wasted attacks. I understand that GMP Barrage takes longer than your attack time, but you gain the benefit of less intervals between attacks for an overall significant gain in attack speed.
Further to everything I have said, it is becoming increasingly obvious that you haven't actually played Caste on Crit. I've played caste on Crit to level 90 on three characters across two temp leagues and to level 93 in standard. I have played GMPless AOE CoC with Glacial Cascade and Flame Surge and Ice Nova. I have tried Kinetic Blast, I have tried spectral throw with daggers. I have tried low life with a 6L Shav's. I know what I am talking about with it comes to CoC. GMP Barrage is the best all around skill for proc's damage, attack speed, clear speed and single target. Having played it, A LOT. GMP Barrage is just better than other options. It just is...
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Updated Skill Tree's posted
Last edited by AngryCustard#6831 on Nov 4, 2015, 8:00:51 PM
You haven't taken into account that that 80% chance to crit comes with 24% increase spell damage from power charges and 33% increased fire damage + 43% increased cold damage. For cold spells that is a 67% increased damage. You lose that by going for twin terrors to gain 45% increased crit chance... The numbers don't stack up.
When you optimize both paths, the difference wont be as great as you described.
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AngryCustard wrote:
Further to everything I have said, it is becoming increasingly obvious that you haven't actually played Caste on Crit. I've played caste on Crit to level 90 on three characters across two temp leagues and to level 93 in standard. I have played GMPless AOE CoC with Glacial Cascade and Flame Surge and Ice Nova. I have tried Kinetic Blast, I have tried spectral throw with daggers. I have tried low life with a 6L Shav's. I know what I am talking about with it comes to CoC. GMP Barrage is the best all around skill for proc's damage, attack speed, clear speed and single target. Having played it, A LOT. GMP Barrage is just better than other options. It just is...
Yes, i'll have to trust you on that until i try it all myself.
I agree, GMP is almost mandatory for fast pack clearing, and with Wands, you have only 2 options - Barrage or Kinetic Blast. With melee weapons, only Spectral Throw offers decent range, but you'll have to invest into projectile speed. And i feel wands being superior...
I probably should be waiting till next 3-month league, but i decided to try CoC in Darkshrine event....
Thanks for all the discussion guys. I just finished leveling up a character to the point where I can start CoC'ing and it's really fun even with horrible gear.
i started this game week ago so totaly new tryed flame totem build and i dont like it :) how is this build to go for new player in temporarly standard league how hard is to reatch atziri whit that?
i started this game week ago so totaly new tryed flame totem build and i dont like it :) how is this build to go for new player in temporarly standard league how hard is to reatch atziri whit that?
Cast on Crit is probably a bit rough on a new player. You need a few specific pieces of gear to get it to work. E.g. Volls protector or a Tabula Rasa. It is also pretty much s glass cannon, and if you don't understand the reflect mechanic you'll end up pancacking yourself giving your wife/girl friend a heart attack coz you're yelling your screen all off a sudden coz you're inexplicably dead without warning.
