How does everyone feel about the new rewards / points required?
"
Bada_Bing wrote:
It sure ain’t about winning or becoming better (heck I don’t do sports in rl because of that bs) and therefore requiring an even playground so the best may win.
you think trying to become better at something you enjoy doing is bs? what?
There's always mixed opinions on what constitutes a good race season.
There seems to be this polar opposition between top racers and casual racers and the thought that GGG has to choose a side when designing a race season. I don't think this is necessarily true.
I've been racing for a long time. I started out being terrible at races (as everyone does) and i raced just for fun. Back when i played PoE, it was mostly solo self found so i don't really care about the economy. Even to this day, i have never, ever, sold a single race reward.
Racing was fun and I was intrigued how so many people were so much better so i tried to improve.
As i got better, my goals changed... I went from "just racing for fun" to "i want to win a solo demi each season" and eventually to "i want to win a signature demi each season".
This is just to say that different racers have different goals. You don't consider competition and winning a race the main objective but there are others who do. Just like I would still race even if there were no points/race rewards because what i care about is the signature demi, but other people's goal is to get the sweet alt art items and that's fine.
Also, don't take this derogatorily. This was my personal experience and not everyone who becomes a top racer has the same goals that i do. I believe there might be some top racers out there who could compete at the highest level but they race just for the rewards. Your experience in racing does not correlate directly to your goals.
So how do you balance the different needs/goals that different racers have? I think GGG solved this problem long ago. It's called the Signature Race. Although considered by many to be just the most common race of the season or the "theme" race of the season, it was designed with the intention of being the highest form of competition. It is a race format catered to the top racers which tries to minimize RNG and provide a basis where we reward skill as much as possible in a high variance game. Its not a perfect concept but its a pretty damn good one.
Thats why if you search these forums, you will see me complaining about Descent Champions being a terrible choice for a signature race for a variety of reasons. Does that mean I want the race to be removed from the season? No. I just want it to not be the signature race.
Thats also why I personally don't like when you or people on forums/reddit/podcast etc. say what should and shouldn't be the signature race.
Don't take this personally. I value your feedback on a race season as a whole but the signature race was designed for top racers. Thus, it should be top racers providing feedback on what and why certain race formats are better or worse for being the signature.
With the signature out of the way, it leaves plenty of room in a race season to have different formats. Non-vanilla races like EL / D / DC, boss kill races, party races, modded races like turbo / exiles everywhere etc. I'm personally not a huge fan but i understand that people are and for that reason, I don't want those races removed.
If you race for the rewards, you should be the one giving feedback if the rewards are good or bad or if they are too hard or too easy to get.
Regarding cheating, i'm pretty sure everyone agrees it hurts the integrity of racing and the lack of action for a very long time proves that they go unpunished and as time goes by more and more people will cheat and more and more people will quit.
So i just ask you, when giving feedback about a race season, try to remember that different people have different goals and one aspect of the race season might not be the best for you or it might not affect you but it will others.
Well said. I especially agree about the Decent Champions part.
There's always mixed opinions on what constitutes a good race season.
There seems to be this polar opposition between top racers and casual racers and the thought that GGG has to choose a side when designing a race season. I don't think this is necessarily true.
I've been racing for a long time. I started out being terrible at races (as everyone does) and i raced just for fun. Back when i played PoE, it was mostly solo self found so i don't really care about the economy. Even to this day, i have never, ever, sold a single race reward.
Racing was fun and I was intrigued how so many people were so much better so i tried to improve.
As i got better, my goals changed... I went from "just racing for fun" to "i want to win a solo demi each season" and eventually to "i want to win a signature demi each season".
This is just to say that different racers have different goals. You don't consider competition and winning a race the main objective but there are others who do. Just like I would still race even if there were no points/race rewards because what i care about is the signature demi, but other people's goal is to get the sweet alt art items and that's fine.
Also, don't take this derogatorily. This was my personal experience and not everyone who becomes a top racer has the same goals that i do. I believe there might be some top racers out there who could compete at the highest level but they race just for the rewards. Your experience in racing does not correlate directly to your goals.
So how do you balance the different needs/goals that different racers have? I think GGG solved this problem long ago. It's called the Signature Race. Although considered by many to be just the most common race of the season or the "theme" race of the season, it was designed with the intention of being the highest form of competition. It is a race format catered to the top racers which tries to minimize RNG and provide a basis where we reward skill as much as possible in a high variance game. Its not a perfect concept but its a pretty damn good one.
Thats why if you search these forums, you will see me complaining about Descent Champions being a terrible choice for a signature race for a variety of reasons. Does that mean I want the race to be removed from the season? No. I just want it to not be the signature race.
Thats also why I personally don't like when you or people on forums/reddit/podcast etc. say what should and shouldn't be the signature race.
Don't take this personally. I value your feedback on a race season as a whole but the signature race was designed for top racers. Thus, it should be top racers providing feedback on what and why certain race formats are better or worse for being the signature.
With the signature out of the way, it leaves plenty of room in a race season to have different formats. Non-vanilla races like EL / D / DC, boss kill races, party races, modded races like turbo / exiles everywhere etc. I'm personally not a huge fan but i understand that people are and for that reason, I don't want those races removed.
If you race for the rewards, you should be the one giving feedback if the rewards are good or bad or if they are too hard or too easy to get.
Regarding cheating, i'm pretty sure everyone agrees it hurts the integrity of racing and the lack of action for a very long time proves that they go unpunished and as time goes by more and more people will cheat and more and more people will quit.
So i just ask you, when giving feedback about a race season, try to remember that different people have different goals and one aspect of the race season might not be the best for you or it might not affect you but it will others.
Well said. I especially agree about the Decent Champions part.
Most of what he said is just my own arguments paraphrased in a less eloquent way, lol?
*thecirclejerkintensifies*
#1 Victim of Murphy's Law.
Last edited by SlixSC#6287 on Nov 19, 2014, 1:18:00 PM
If you are ok with the consequence that only a few dozen will participate in sig races in the future, fine.
May i remind you on what you have written about developement resources? If the dwindling player base in races leads to GGG redirecting their developement time away from races, then the most important question should be: what causes players to leave races/rejoin them?
I fully understand how bothersome maphacks are for competitive racers, but i ain't what most people turns away from races. If that can't be stopped, the maphacking will become a moot point because there won't be any more races.
Once a ship is sinking arguing about blind passengers seems a bit secondary.
...few dozen will participate
...dwindling player base in races
...won't be any more races
...ship is sinking
Do you have any statistics indicating these supposed trends, or is it just a feeling you have? Sigs have historically always been low-participation, barring when they ignorantly made D:C the sig (free points for all).
If you are ok with the consequence that only a few dozen will participate in sig races in the future, fine.
May i remind you on what you have written about developement resources? If the dwindling player base in races leads to GGG redirecting their developement time away from races, then the most important question should be: what causes players to leave races/rejoin them?
I fully understand how bothersome maphacks are for competitive racers, but i ain't what most people turns away from races. If that can't be stopped, the maphacking will become a moot point because there won't be any more races.
Once a ship is sinking arguing about blind passengers seems a bit secondary.
...few dozen will participate
...dwindling player base in races
...won't be any more races
...ship is sinking
Do you have any statistics indicating these supposed trends, or is it just a feeling you have? Sigs have historically always been low-participation, barring when they ignorantly made D:C the sig (free points for all).
I think the old Turbo signatures also had decent participation, though I could be misremembering.
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...few dozen will participate
...dwindling player base in races
...won't be any more races
...ship is sinking
Do you have any statistics indicating these supposed trends, or is it just a feeling you have? Sigs have historically always been low-participation, barring when they ignorantly made D:C the sig (free points for all).
I've choosen the fifth sig race and the penultimate + the 3 preceding races
Taken from poestatistics.com. The numbers displayed there are ~5% smaller than on the poe website for whatever reasons.
You have to subtract 20-25% from those numbers (mules and rerolls) anyway to get a realistic view on the number of people that joined the races.
Cumulative season numbers aren't that different:
# of people with more than 100 points
If you look on how many people achieved more than 100 points you get:
s5 - 2708
s6 - 2437
s7 - 1132
s8 - 1679 (partly due to inflated points)
s9 - 964 (still missing the last 6 races)
Taken from the poe website
I know predicting the future is notoriously vague, but given the trend i'm not optimistic that there will be season 12.
Now all i'm saying is, that all the yammering about maphacks that fills the feedback forum is missing the point IF it is meant as an explanation for the decline or as a means to stop it (fix maphacks and people will return).
I'm absolut certain that maphacks, as annoying as they are, have nothing to do with the dwindling interest in races.
BTW My own suggestions about ways to improve the interest in races may also be completely wrong and ineffective. I don't claim to be the pope.
Last edited by Bada_Bing#4191 on Nov 19, 2014, 5:28:02 PM
Now all i'm saying is, that all the yammering about maphacks that fills the feedback forum is missing the point IF it is meant as an explanation for the decline or as a means to stop it (fix maphacks and people will return).
I'm absolut certain that maphacks, as annoying as they are, have nothing to do with the dwindling interest in races.
BTW My own suggestions about ways to improve the interest in races may also be completely wrong and ineffective. I don't claim to be the pope.
They do. Fixed seed races being the signature are a sop to the racing community as a way to deal with it.
These are also historically some of the least fun races to do, especially since its been the signature for 5 of 9 seasons(docks farm) and now docks + fixed. (unofficial s1 sig is 3hours ending in docks).
My opinion is that GGG bit off more than they could chew. Now everyone expects ambush level hype for the next leagues, and honestly I don't see an easy way to ever top that league.
People prefer races like Descent, DC, and EL, and yet we only have one variant in this season inexplicably. The changes to last seasons signature were hasty and not tested or thought out, and honestly ruined a very good race that only needed some minor tweaking, like original descent did.
As of now, with the comically low participation GGG Can point to a lack of interest as a reason why something more isn't done, which would happen internally and just never discussed publicly, which has been a very self fulfilling prophecy if some things had been different.
"When I close my eyes, I see this thing, a sign, I see this name in bright blue neon lights with a purple outline. And this name is so bright and so sharp that the sign - it just blows up because the name is so powerful... It says, "Diamond Supporter."
Now all i'm saying is, that all the yammering about maphacks that fills the feedback forum is missing the point IF it is meant as an explanation for the decline or as a means to stop it (fix maphacks and people will return).
I'm absolut certain that maphacks, as annoying as they are, have nothing to do with the dwindling interest in races.
BTW My own suggestions about ways to improve the interest in races may also be completely wrong and ineffective. I don't claim to be the pope.
They do. Fixed seed races being the signature are a sop to the racing community as a way to deal with it.
These are also historically some of the least fun races to do, especially since its been the signature for 5 of 9 seasons(docks farm) and now docks + fixed. (unofficial s1 sig is 3hours ending in docks).
My opinion is that GGG bit off more than they could chew. Now everyone expects ambush level hype for the next leagues, and honestly I don't see an easy way to ever top that league.
People prefer races like Descent, DC, and EL, and yet we only have one variant in this season inexplicably. The changes to last seasons signature were hasty and not tested or thought out, and honestly ruined a very good race that only needed some minor tweaking, like original descent did.
As of now, with the comically low participation GGG Can point to a lack of interest as a reason why something more isn't done, which would happen internally and just never discussed publicly, which has been a very self fulfilling prophecy if some things had been different.
