[3.10] Sovyn's Lazy Pally - Tanky Templar with Max Block

"

Molochmane wrote:

After endless of farming. I finally met my goal ! A soultaker >_<, and yes it's a must have item for this build. Can't say no to free mana for melee skills.

Looking great!

A Soultaker is quite an accomplishment! Congratulations!

Farming -- did you look for siege axes and chance orbs, or did you farm for alterations to upconvert to fusings and trade for exalts then trade for the Soultaker... ? Just curious how you went about it. :)

"

Edzilla wrote:

What I'm trying to say is, you waste a lot points in pretty bad damage nodes from the beginning part of templar. You can always get those block nodes or anything else from templar, while going marauder - but you only gain because your build goes all the way into marauder anyway.

.....

The stats are pretty similar - you have slightly more physical damage (though, melee physical damage is worthless with LS, which is the only skill i'd use with Soul taker) but I have 8% more attack speed, more 5 increased max health, and more effective armor since I go IR and actually use my evasion for something useful.

I also grabbed 1 endurance charge and static blows - mainly because it would be for a Bringer of Rain + Lightning Strike + Soul Taker build.

I dunno if you would call it better, but, if you wanted to go Lightning Strike, it would be easier for marauder - since if I drop my endurance charge and static blows, I would have 4 free points for more health, armor or damage/attack speed and it would probably surpass your tree in mitigation and at least match it in damage.

Bear in mind, I don't have a hostile tone here. Hard to know on the Internet.

I did take exception to the statement that only IR would be using evasion for a useful purpose.

Did you watch my latest video, where I do two Koles back to back and he does not manage to hit me even once? Only evasion can accomplish this. Do you realize that in maps with additional projectiles that this build is nearly immune due to Ondar's? Do you realize how hard it is to max out Chaos resist on gear when all it takes to avoid most Chaos damage in maps is high evasion and Ondar's thus bypassing this problem?

I espouse a balanced approach - not only one or the other. I currently have 34% mitigation and 34% chance to avoid attacks and 68% chance to avoid projectiles. I'm self found, so you could do much better than me with my same approach if trading regularly.

As to the builds you proposed, all other things being equal, we can break it down like this (Note, I'm just using the numbers you kindly posted, I did not error check or anything):

276 maximum life
5.4% life regen per second
222% increased max life
44% to all resists (with shield)
32% increased evasion and armor
2% life leech from physical attacks
40% increased evasion rating
202% increased melee physical damage
30% increased attack speed
16% WED

VS.

250 max life
4.4 life regen per second
232% increased maxium life
24% to all resists
42% increased rating rating
4 maximum power charges
144% increased melee physical damage
38% increased attack speed

- So we can see you would be losing 20% resists. This is a big deal to the average player and will make the difference between maxing out in Merciless or not.

- Losing 1% life regen

- Gaining a little life, OK.

- Losing 32% evasion and armour and the run speed perk

- Losing 2% life leech

- Losing some max life which would be multiplied by percentage life nodes

- Losing a ton of melee damage which is a big deal to most people

- Gaining a little attack speed but not enough to make up for the last item, see my videos I think you would agree my attack speed is fine as it is

- Losing the WED but I don't think that matters

The pros to my build outweigh the cons no matter how you look at it. I'm open to improvement, I just need to be shown in a concrete way that it would actually be an improvement for most people.

"

Sovyn wrote:

"

seiferoth10 wrote:

So, I was staring at the passive tree, particularly how it dips into the marauder area at great cost, instead of going around the outside for much fewer nodes. I tried to replace what you would typically get by going into the marauder start area with nodes from templar and ranger areas, and I think the build came out better overall.

Thanks for your experimentation, I appreciate it.

However, I don't think it's quite as good as the guide build:

1) You lose the two "reduced enemy critical strike multiplier" nodes which are a nice defense

2) Losing +30 to max life which is substantial when multiplied by life nodes

3) Losing a lot of blocking so this won't work for most people as max blocking is required to succeed

4) Losing too much intelligence to run purity at high levels which is required for most people to succeed

5) Finesse has a wasted accuracy stat, not a big deal

May be some other tradeoffs, I'd have to see a breakdown of all of the total stats for my suggested level 80 build vs. this one to properly analyze it.

Okay, I finally figured out how to do the build breakdown. I used my build I posted as base build, and extended it all the way to Troll's Blood as per the OP's build (spent 3 more points). As such, I took my Ranger build and spent 3 more points on nodes I felt best replaced what was lost in my Marauder build.

The builds: Marauder area. and Say No to Marauder.

The major differences:
Marauder build === Say No to Marauder build
310 strength === 280 strength
190 dex === 210 dex
5% life regen === 4.5% life regen
164% increased max life === 186% increased max life
+82 max life === +52 max life
92% increased physical with one hand === 102% increased physical with one hand
+24% elemental resist === +20% elemental resist
+12% increased attack speed === +20% increased attack speed
+30% increased fire damage with weapon === Nothing
30% reduced damage from enemy crits === Nothing
Nothing === +28% increased armor
Nothing === 30% chance to avoid being stunned

"

seiferoth10 wrote:

Okay, I finally figured out how to do the build breakdown. I used my build I posted as base build, and extended it all the way to Troll's Blood as per the OP's build (spent 3 more points). As such, I took my Ranger build and spent 3 more points on nodes I felt best replaced what was lost in my Marauder build.

The builds: Marauder area. and Say No to Marauder.

The major differences:
Marauder build === Say No to Marauder build
310 strength === 280 strength
190 dex === 210 dex
5% life regen === 4.5% life regen
164% increased max life === 186% increased max life
+82 max life === +52 max life
92% increased physical with one hand === 102% increased physical with one hand
+24% elemental resist === +20% elemental resist
+12% increased attack speed === +20% increased attack speed
+30% increased fire damage with weapon === Nothing
30% reduced damage from enemy crits === Nothing
Nothing === +28% increased armor
Nothing === 30% chance to avoid being stunned

Thank you for your follow up.

I could not help but notice that the build you are comparing to is not the build from the guide.

So, I'll take the level 80 build from the guide and compare yours to that. Looks like I'll have to spend one more skill point to make it fair at 101 points spent, so I'll choose Steel Skin as the overwhelmingly obvious choice.

I did a neat summary of both builds as follows:

The build from the guide:

+302 to Strength
+204 to Dexterity
+72 to Intelligence
+472 to maximum Mana
+855 to maximum Life

150% increased maximum Life
3% of Life Regenerated per Second

34% additional Shield Block Chance
4% additional Block Chance while Dual Wielding or holding a Shield
12% of Block Chance applied to Spells
120% increased Defences from equipped Shield
+20% Elemental Resistances while holding a Shield
40% increased Block Recovery

50% increased Melee Physical Damage
76% increased Physical Damage with One Handed Melee Weapons
16% increased Elemental Damage with Weapons
3% increased Attack Speed with One Handed Melee Weapons
12% increased Attack Speed

52% increased Armour
You take 30% reduced Extra Damage from Critical Strikes
32% increased Evasion Rating and Armour

8% increased maximum Mana
Your hits can't be Evaded
Never deal Critical Strikes

+2 to Melee Weapon and Unarmed range
+24% to all Elemental Resistances

Ignore all Movement Penalties from Armour
Doubles chance to Evade Projectile Attacks

2% of Physical Attack Damage Leeched back as Life

VS. Your suggestion:

+302 to Strength
+224 to Dexterity
+42 to Intelligence
+457 to maximum Mana
+847 to maximum Life

186% increased maximum Life
4.5% of Life Regenerated per Second

19% additional Shield Block Chance
4% additional Block Chance while Dual Wielding or holding a Shield
12% of Block Chance applied to Spells
100% increased Defences from equipped Shield
+20% Elemental Resistances while holding a Shield
15% increased Block and Stun Recovery

77% increased Melee Physical Damage
102% increased Physical Damage with One Handed Melee Weapons
16% increased Elemental Damage with Weapons
17% increased Attack Speed with One Handed Melee Weapons
20% increased Attack Speed

28% increased Armour
22% increased maximum Energy Shield
30% Chance to Avoid being Stunned
32% increased Evasion Rating and Armour

8% increased maximum Mana
Your hits can't be Evaded
Never deal Critical Strikes

+2 to Melee Weapon and Unarmed range
+20% to all Elemental Resistances

4% increased Movement Speed

Ignore all Movement Penalties from Armour
20% increased Accuracy Rating
Doubles chance to Evade Projectile Attacks

2% of Physical Attack Damage Leeched back as Life


Commentary:

As we can see, you have suggested more of a glass cannon that veers sharply away from the max block philosophy. Most people would not be able to max out their block with your build which would be borderline suicide for a toe-to-toe build like this. Have to live to do damage.

Also, your build does not have enough intelligence to max out Purity which is required for most people to max out resists in Merciless/maps. That combined with the slightly lower elemental resistances already would be crippling.

Additionally, your armour would be substantially lower. That combined with the lack of the "You take 30% reduced Extra Damage from Critical Strikes" defensive stat that my build has would be a huge difference in survivability.

Those are the big ones, the rest is nit picking but still:

- Your build has much less block recovery
- Your build has 20% less increased Defences from equipped Shield which makes a nice difference with a proper high evasion shield as I do suggest (500+)

Bottom line is that, unfortunately, the build you propose does not pass muster as a well rounded defensive build for everyman. Don't be discouraged though, it's just that I did spend 100 hours poring over every possibility so it would probably be hard to beat the guide build.

"

Sovyn wrote:

"

Molochmane wrote:

After endless of farming. I finally met my goal ! A soultaker >_<, and yes it's a must have item for this build. Can't say no to free mana for melee skills.

Looking great!

A Soultaker is quite an accomplishment! Congratulations!

Farming -- did you look for siege axes and chance orbs, or did you farm for alterations to upconvert to fusings and trade for exalts then trade for the Soultaker... ? Just curious how you went about it. :)

I did lots of maps and found high level uniques (thunderfist, lioneye's glare, etc) and sell them off because I have no use of 'em haha. And yes i did shard alot of rares i found and got proficient on it, upconvert tons of alts to fuses and made plenty of choas orbs from the vendor recipe.

I wish I had chanced an axe, but before anarchy ends, I really dont wanna spend more ex on standard league lol! Moreover I run four auras now: Grace/Determinination/Tempest shield/Hatred

To do well, I believe that having enough mana and health makes this build shine.My survivable rate jumped up really high when I started doing very hard maps (unfavorable modifiers), getting the life, defense, resist, str and stun block recovery are a must for this build when you currency is no object.

"

Sovyn wrote:

"

seiferoth10 wrote:

My reply.

Okay, I finally figured out how to do the build breakdown. I used my build I posted as base build, and extended it all the way to Troll's Blood as per the OP's build (spent 3 more points). As such, I took my Ranger build and spent 3 more points on nodes I felt best replaced what was lost in my Marauder build.

The builds: Marauder area. and Say No to Marauder.

The major differences:
Marauder build === Say No to Marauder build
310 strength === 280 strength
190 dex === 210 dex
5% life regen === 4.5% life regen
164% increased max life === 186% increased max life
+82 max life === +52 max life
92% increased physical with one hand === 102% increased physical with one hand
+24% elemental resist === +20% elemental resist
+12% increased attack speed === +20% increased attack speed
+30% increased fire damage with weapon === Nothing
30% reduced damage from enemy crits === Nothing
Nothing === +28% increased armor
Nothing === 30% chance to avoid being stunned

I put your reply in spoiler because of its length.

Thank you for your follow up.

I could not help but notice that the build you are comparing to is not the build from the guide.

So, I'll take the level 80 build from the guide and compare yours to that. Looks like I'll have to spend one more skill point to make it fair at 101 points spent, so I'll choose Steel Skin as the overwhelmingly obvious choice.

I did a neat summary of both builds as follows:

The build from the guide:

+302 to Strength
+204 to Dexterity
+72 to Intelligence
+472 to maximum Mana
+855 to maximum Life

150% increased maximum Life
3% of Life Regenerated per Second

34% additional Shield Block Chance
4% additional Block Chance while Dual Wielding or holding a Shield
12% of Block Chance applied to Spells
120% increased Defences from equipped Shield
+20% Elemental Resistances while holding a Shield
40% increased Block Recovery

50% increased Melee Physical Damage
76% increased Physical Damage with One Handed Melee Weapons
16% increased Elemental Damage with Weapons
3% increased Attack Speed with One Handed Melee Weapons
12% increased Attack Speed

52% increased Armour
You take 30% reduced Extra Damage from Critical Strikes
32% increased Evasion Rating and Armour

8% increased maximum Mana
Your hits can't be Evaded
Never deal Critical Strikes

+2 to Melee Weapon and Unarmed range
+24% to all Elemental Resistances

Ignore all Movement Penalties from Armour
Doubles chance to Evade Projectile Attacks

2% of Physical Attack Damage Leeched back as Life

VS. Your suggestion:

+302 to Strength
+224 to Dexterity
+42 to Intelligence
+457 to maximum Mana
+847 to maximum Life

186% increased maximum Life
4.5% of Life Regenerated per Second

19% additional Shield Block Chance
4% additional Block Chance while Dual Wielding or holding a Shield
12% of Block Chance applied to Spells
100% increased Defences from equipped Shield
+20% Elemental Resistances while holding a Shield
15% increased Block and Stun Recovery

77% increased Melee Physical Damage
102% increased Physical Damage with One Handed Melee Weapons
16% increased Elemental Damage with Weapons
17% increased Attack Speed with One Handed Melee Weapons
20% increased Attack Speed

28% increased Armour
22% increased maximum Energy Shield
30% Chance to Avoid being Stunned
32% increased Evasion Rating and Armour

8% increased maximum Mana
Your hits can't be Evaded
Never deal Critical Strikes

+2 to Melee Weapon and Unarmed range
+20% to all Elemental Resistances

4% increased Movement Speed

Ignore all Movement Penalties from Armour
20% increased Accuracy Rating
Doubles chance to Evade Projectile Attacks

2% of Physical Attack Damage Leeched back as Life


Commentary:

As we can see, you have suggested more of a glass cannon that veers sharply away from the max block philosophy. Most people would not be able to max out their block with your build which would be borderline suicide for a toe-to-toe build like this. Have to live to do damage.

Also, your build does not have enough intelligence to max out Purity which is required for most people to max out resists in Merciless/maps. That combined with the slightly lower elemental resistances already would be crippling.

Additionally, your armour would be substantially lower. That combined with the lack of the "You take 30% reduced Extra Damage from Critical Strikes" defensive stat that my build has would be a huge difference in survivability.

Those are the big ones, the rest is nit picking but still:

- Your build has much less block recovery
- Your build has 20% less increased Defences from equipped Shield which makes a nice difference with a proper high evasion shield as I do suggest (500+)

Bottom line is that, unfortunately, the build you propose does not pass muster as a well rounded defensive build for everyman. Don't be discouraged though, it's just that I did spend 100 hours poring over every possibility so it would probably be hard to beat the guide build.

Thanks for the analysis. I guess a central focus of my build is you need a Bringer for the 15% block. Though I do think you're getting caught up in the fact that I was proposing "my" build, that I have already customized to my specific gear and play style. My intention was to focus on the Marauder area and find out if it can be effectively bypassed. I think a more apt comparison would be taking your 100 point build in the OP, bypassing the Marauder area, and analyzing the result. Which is below:

Note: I didn't take Steel Skin in either build because that's obviously the next point for both builds.

The differences:
OP's 100 point build /// Bypass Marauder 100 point build
280 strength /// 230 strength
190 dex /// 210 dex
150% max life /// 154% max life
3% life regen /// 2.5% life regen
+60 max life /// +40 max life
76% phys. dmg with one hand weapon /// 102% phys. dmg with one hand weapon
+24% elemental resist /// +20% elemental resist
3% attack speed with one hand weapon /// 17% attack speed with one hand weapon
12% attack speed /// 20% attack speed
22% increased Armor /// 50% increased armor
34% shield block chance /// 31% shield block chance
120% increased defense from shield /// 100% increased defense from shield
40% block recovery /// 15% block and stun recovery
30% reduced dmg from crits /// Nothing
Nothing /// 30% chance to avoid being stunned

This is probably the comparison I should've started with, as it illustrates my main focus of bypassing the Marauder area.

Thanks Sovyn.

I am not good at fast and quick mouse clicks, multiple keypresses at lightning speed, I am a very slowpoke literally.

I am level 21 now - a nice level 80+ person gave me a nice helmet and gloves (gloves cant use yet).

This is what I use - I used a couple of globe drops on the shield to change socket colors (I know, I know - should save all cash drops!, but thought would use a couple, I have everything else in stash).

I use Cleave for the AE effect, I am using the other green/blue gems as filler skills as I dont have red sockets to put in that molten shield one yet.



Am following the skill tree, so far having a lot of fun.

Still not used to parties - seems everyone atleast is like 20 times faster than me (I dont rush anywhere loh) so 99% of the time I trail behind (by like 2/3 screens). I am going to find some equally slow folks and party up.

Couple of Qs: Is Cleave a viable AE skill to keep up?> I like it very much, especially with the life from hit gem linked to it (levelling other one up too - not linked yet).


How do I use the Weapon elemental damage support gem? I mean what skill should I link it to for that to take effect? Thanks (for now I have it in weapon (one red socket only on weapon) to level it up while I get more socketed items etc

thanks again.

sorry removed : didnt see edit option ;

"

MildlyClever wrote:

Thanks Sovyn.

I am not good at fast and quick mouse clicks, multiple keypresses at lightning speed, I am a very slowpoke literally.

I am level 21 now - a nice level 80+ person gave me a nice helmet and gloves (gloves cant use yet).

This is what I use - I used a couple of globe drops on the shield to change socket colors (I know, I know - should save all cash drops!, but thought would use a couple, I have everything else in stash).

I use Cleave for the AE effect, I am using the other green/blue gems as filler skills as I dont have red sockets to put in that molten shield one yet.

Spoiler

Am following the skill tree, so far having a lot of fun.

Still not used to parties - seems everyone atleast is like 20 times faster than me (I dont rush anywhere loh) so 99% of the time I trail behind (by like 2/3 screens). I am going to find some equally slow folks and party up.

Couple of Qs: Is Cleave a viable AE skill to keep up?> I like it very much, especially with the life from hit gem linked to it (levelling other one up too - not linked yet).


How do I use the Weapon elemental damage support gem? I mean what skill should I link it to for that to take effect? Thanks (for now I have it in weapon (one red socket only on weapon) to level it up while I get more socketed items etc

thanks again.

Yes, cleave is a good main attack to use. There are builds where cleave is used for their main attack, single and multi-target. Luckily this build isn't that strict on what main attack skill you use, so you're free to experiment with whatever tickles your fancy. Some skills that people use are Infernal Blow, Heavy Strike, Dominating Blow, Double Strike, Reave, Lightning Strike. Everything has its strengths and weaknesses.

As for Weapon Elemental Damage, you link it to a weapon skill (like Cleave, Infernal Blow, etc.), and that skill will do extra elemental damage. To illustrate what I'm talking about, mouse over your Cleave and it'll say "Main hand hits do xx-xxx fire damage", etc for other elements. Link WED on it and that number will go up.

"

seiferoth10 wrote:

Thanks for the analysis. I guess a central focus of my build is you need a Bringer for the 15% block. Though I do think you're getting caught up in the fact that I was proposing "my" build, that I have already customized to my specific gear and play style. My intention was to focus on the Marauder area and find out if it can be effectively bypassed. I think a more apt comparison would be taking your 100 point build in the OP, bypassing the Marauder area, and analyzing the result. Which is below:

Note: I didn't take Steel Skin in either build because that's obviously the next point for both builds.

The differences:
OP's 100 point build /// Bypass Marauder 100 point build
280 strength /// 230 strength
190 dex /// 210 dex
150% max life /// 154% max life
3% life regen /// 2.5% life regen
+60 max life /// +40 max life
76% phys. dmg with one hand weapon /// 102% phys. dmg with one hand weapon
+24% elemental resist /// +20% elemental resist
3% attack speed with one hand weapon /// 17% attack speed with one hand weapon
12% attack speed /// 20% attack speed
22% increased Armor /// 50% increased armor
34% shield block chance /// 31% shield block chance
120% increased defense from shield /// 100% increased defense from shield
40% block recovery /// 15% block and stun recovery
30% reduced dmg from crits /// Nothing
Nothing /// 30% chance to avoid being stunned

This is probably the comparison I should've started with, as it illustrates my main focus of bypassing the Marauder area.

Looks good. Not sure which is better. Don't think there is a clear winner here. Nothing to make me change though. Most people could use the extra 4% block and resists, evasion from shield ("increased defense from shield"), and maybe regen and block recovery that the guide offers. The higher strength and flat max life of the guide build would make the life perhaps slightly higher on the guide build as well. I'd say that the last straw is the "reduced dmg from crits" that the guide build offers, making the guide build slightly tankier, and your suggested build would do more damage.