Definition of a "Build"

Some passives define build and some don't. CI or not affects your build, but 142% or 148% HP doesn't.

25% or 250% HP would be build defining though... so it's not that HP couldn't define a build.

So, it's vague. If a character would play differently, it's a different build.

I have two different Freeze pulsers a Shadow and a Scion.

The Shadow is focusing on heavy crit chance and crit dmg with added lightning dmg and increased shock debuff triggering + a lot of evasion/es/rez/hp. Using a Wand and a Shield.

The Scion is focusing on double cursing enemies with spell totem, CI and casting speed is the source of dps instead of crit dmg. Crit chance ofc is included because its mandatory to freeze enemies. Using a 2 handed staff. Here I'm also forced to run Discipline of Elements because of the lack of all rezist stat from gear,nods, mostly weapon and shield.

Both builds are very very different using the same main skills.
I say builds should include skills and nods which synergizes very well with each other.

A succesful build for me is to reach lvl 70 with ease and to be able to clear maps solo.

Using most of the responses so far, this game has over 100 different viable builds easy.

So why is it that I see regular posts claiming that this game only has like 5-10 viable builds?

Maybe the focus is on the word viable. Maybe that person thinks you have to be able to clear lvl 78 maps to be a "viable build"

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syrioforel wrote:

I view a build as a plan for determining the passive nodes, skill gems, and gear that will be used and acquired with a character.

A build is the complete picture -- a recipe. I'd say that a build is incomplete if it simply lists the stat allocation at 100 nodes, or at 120 nodes. It would be incomplete if it failed to list the active skills used, or support gems used at various stages: 4L, 5L, 6L (if planning out that far).

Transitions and strategies for leveling and handling certain map mods should also be given.

The build isn't the build, the build is the recipe...no, wait, that's souffles...but the point still stands.

Yes, skills, passives, and even gear are all part of it in most cases, but it's the overall plan that really determines a build. You can make minor changes and still consider it the same build as long as the overall plan and how you go about implementing that plan are mostly unchanged.

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iamstryker wrote:

Using most of the responses so far, this game has over 100 different viable builds easy.

So why is it that I see regular posts claiming that this game only has like 5-10 viable builds?

Maybe the focus is on the word viable. Maybe that person thinks you have to be able to clear lvl 78 maps to be a "viable build"

Correct.

Viability for what is the question.

We all have different goals and expectations to fulfill.

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iamstryker wrote:

Using most of the responses so far, this game has over 100 different viable builds easy.

So why is it that I see regular posts claiming that this game only has like 5-10 viable builds?

Maybe the focus is on the word viable. Maybe that person thinks you have to be able to clear lvl 78 maps to be a "viable build"

Because it is true. They are no way 100 different builds. Look at my post above yours, I said I have 2 different freeze pulsers but that doesnt mean it is a different build.
It is one build and it is the freezing pulse build. Using 2 handed weapon or 1h+shield or having slightly different nods doesnt make it a different build. It is the freezing pulse build because you are spamming that skill 95 % of the time with both characters.

You realise it's not binary, right? Builds, such as they are, exist on an n-dimensional continuum. My ice-ranger crit build is closer to Blastrophe's LA-ranger crit build than it is to my dual-claws noncrit build. theWombo's LA frost-wall-abuse build forms some third corner of a triangle with the two archer builds previously mentioned. And all these HP builds are on like one end of the n-dimensional space in which Path builds fall, with CI on the opposing end.

Similarly, those few guys posting questions/advice in our build threads are probably closer to our builds, on the n-space, than to builds in other threads.

You're all debating what level of difference is enough to be considered a "different" build. Let me just join in the fun!

(Non-mathematicians may feel free to stop reading here)

Observations:
- Path build n-space is discrete. Some of it may be rather finer than the rest, but it's discrete. It's also closed and contains a (very large, but) finite number of elements.
- Passive tree major or minor changes have some effect sometimes. Big nodes are game-changing, small nodes have cumulative effects, but the only logical way to resolve this is for no nodes to be valueless.
- Skills are different. Support combinations are different, to some extent. As above, there can be only one logical resolution to this. Both these spaces don't necessarily behave all that well if you pick the wrong definitions, so don't pick the wrong definitions.
- For the most part, rare item stats have less impact, and similarly with statball uniques like Kaom's Primacy. On the other hand, there are build definers like Facebreaker. Such items, then, each correspond to a single dimension in Path build n-space, or we can say that Path build n-space is the product space of several spaces, some of which are Boolean in nature and correspond to items. But even statballs have their impacts: physical, spell, both? How much total MF? And so observe: it makes sense to have each individual stat mapping to some interval in R, and the sum total of rares/statballs occupying some point in R^m.

That's...clearly not all different builds the way the term "build" is generally used, though a strict definition should define them that way, so let me introduce the term "setup". Each element of Path build n-space is a different setup.

Luckily for us, setups tend to cluster in different regions of each of the parent spaces that contribute to the product space. Just as an example, on the skills space, taking a subset of all setups which contain the active skill element LA, a lot of xMP, chain, WED, etc are found, while setups containing MPD and splash are conspicuously absent. (If you're wondering, I defined a compact R^6 where "support gem does not work with skill" means that element just maps back to 0 on that dimension. There's a lot of (LA,0,0,0,0,0) in it. Not necessarily the most efficient method, but I'll take that trade-off for the well-behaved-ness of R^6 any day!)

>> I believe it is possible to define a metric on Path build n-space. Just saying. This is important.

But going back to the idea of clusters, that's basically a finer - or coarser, sorry I'm on a timer here not going to figure that one out - version of each of the mentioned spaces. Each element in Path build cluster n-space is a different build. Alternatively, for each cluster choose a point near its centre* to be the element in the corresponding space, and thus define builds.

*this is why the metric was important

Problem solved, right? The only fuzzy bit is the clusters one, and I'm not happy with that either, but how else are you going to draw an arbitrary line? The second method might be better, as in "I'm playing a setup that's close to theWombo's build on Path build n-space".

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xxxmarok84xxx wrote:

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iamstryker wrote:

Using most of the responses so far, this game has over 100 different viable builds easy.

So why is it that I see regular posts claiming that this game only has like 5-10 viable builds?

Maybe the focus is on the word viable. Maybe that person thinks you have to be able to clear lvl 78 maps to be a "viable build"

Because it is true. They are no way 100 different builds. Look at my post above yours, I said I have 2 different freeze pulsers but that doesnt mean it is a different build.
It is one build and it is the freezing pulse build. Using 2 handed weapon or 1h+shield or having slightly different nods doesnt make it a different build. It is the freezing pulse build because you are spamming that skill 95 % of the time with both characters.

I don't really agree here. Two characters can definitely be spamming the same skill and still have very different builds.

I also don't think you have to be in lvl 78 maps to be considered viable. For me any build is viable that can complete the game, and I realize many players believe that a build is viable far before that which is also cool.

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Temper wrote:

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iamstryker wrote:

Using most of the responses so far, this game has over 100 different viable builds easy.

So why is it that I see regular posts claiming that this game only has like 5-10 viable builds?

Maybe the focus is on the word viable. Maybe that person thinks you have to be able to clear lvl 78 maps to be a "viable build"

Correct.

Viability for what is the question.

We all have different goals and expectations to fulfill.

Strickly by definition viable means its simply possible. It may not be efficient but evev if it takes an hour to clear a map you have a viable build its just not as efficient as more popular ones.

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derbefrier wrote:

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Temper wrote:

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iamstryker wrote:

Using most of the responses so far, this game has over 100 different viable builds easy.

So why is it that I see regular posts claiming that this game only has like 5-10 viable builds?

Maybe the focus is on the word viable. Maybe that person thinks you have to be able to clear lvl 78 maps to be a "viable build"

Correct.

Viability for what is the question.

We all have different goals and expectations to fulfill.

Strickly by definition viable means its simply possible. It may not be efficient but evev if it takes an hour to clear a map you have a viable build its just not as efficient as more popular ones.

When using the word "viable", the context ought to always answer the quesiton "Viable for what?". Evidently, what's viable for beating merciless dominus is not necessarily what's viable for competing at top50 nemesis rankings.