How do YOU define "pay to win"?

First of all.. P2W term work only in PvP , like someone write few post ago , stash tabs are p2w ? lol no.

The best example of p2w game imo is Age of Empires onlnie , diablo 3 is also good example.
But even if you have way better items then your opponent you can still lose duel , if "enemy" plays better then you.

Imo items "power" is only important when two players with similar skill lv fight . If someone is way better then you , know game better etc , you will lose anyway , and items dont help you that much.

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Pallad wrote:

First of all.. P2W term work only in PvP

Not really, this is a game where PvE ladders are important as well...

My opinion on the topic..

If you buy anything that helps your character kill, level up, find stuff better than a guy that didnt buy anything, for example
XP boosts for money = Pay to win
Gear bought with real money = Pay to win
Some kind of gear finding boost? = pay to win

NOT pay to win ( atleast directly ) :
Visual stuff, like skins and such
More stash slots, this is kinda hard one since it is and isnt P2W, you can just put more stuff in your " bank ", thats all. not a big deal.
More character slots. Doesnt really help you win in any way.
Kiwis.

thats about all i can think right now.

Pets, skins, spell animations, extra char slots, stash tabs and even xp booster (which IMO is a little unfair) are OK, but I disagree with the idea of offering respecs with money.

Isn't the whole idea of not allowing us to make full respecs used to make us plan our builds more carefully? People in this community (both devs and players) are so averse to respecs that it surprises me that someone may be wanting to buy respec (especially full ones) with money.

I'm not really opposite to full respecs, but if GGG sells that service then they should also extend this benefit to all players by offering a way for everyone to full respec for free, even if this is granted by a very rare orb for example.

I read this idea of buying respecs in this thread, in a commentary made by a regular player, so that doesn't mean GGG is planning to add this service, but if that's the case I think it's dishonest of their part since the devs disagreed previously with the idea of full respecs.


To all that may say I'm against the idea of buying respecs with money please note that I bought the $25 pack, so I would also spend my money on respec if this was offered, but I'm still against the idea of adding them even though this could benefit me later on.

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oblomir wrote:

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Pallad wrote:

First of all.. P2W term work only in PvP

Not really, this is a game where PvE ladders are important as well...

Important for what ? , wanna be high in PvE ladder ? , play more then others simple as that , it have nothing to do with skill.

When full completed PvP will hit in PoE , this will be important , and who is better player will be showed.

If someone is 5-10 positions in PvE ladder higer then other player it DONT mean that he is better player , it only show he played more , simple as that.

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Pallad wrote:

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oblomir wrote:

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Pallad wrote:

First of all.. P2W term work only in PvP

Not really, this is a game where PvE ladders are important as well...

Important for what ? , wanna be high in PvE ladder ? , play more then others simple as that , it have nothing to do with skill.

lol, you can't play more than someone else in a 3-hour race for example.

I find it really interesting that a lot of people that actually donated a decent amount (including me) are actually against Pay 2 Win, while a lot of the people that are arguing that X is not pay to win are actually f2p players. Not that it probably reflects the game itself, I just found it pretty interesting to think about.

Interesting discussion around a difficult question. When we grapple with the word 'define' we can often end up with some correct but far-reaching scenarios, and sometimes they don't have a significant of real-world impact in game. personally i try to determine how a microtransaction impacts game play, decide if that is acceptable or not and then either play or not.

i have acted on a belief that my definition of P2W is compatible with GGG's, or at least compatible enough that i don't expect the game experience to be ruined by the choice to spend more, or less, or no money at all. (in my case it is academic - i gave 'em my 25 bucks and i've got some points to spend, and i'm-a gonna spend 'em.)

also i tend to be a lot more forgiving when the game costs me nothing to play which for me was true until just a few days ago, after playing many hours for free. it was more about giving support this company and their awesome achievement than about getting stuff.

I believe it comes down to what you want to get out of the game, and whether or not you feel you are getting your moneys worth (easier when it costs nothing) and having a good time playing.

a couple of the examples in the thread that come up often are XP boost and stash tabs. i believe a case can be made that both are (by strictest definition) P2W as it can be proven that in certain situations they convey an advantage. just how much of an advantage is the more interesting part of the discussion, so let's try to get some interesting information from numbers :)

XP is easier so let's start there. let's assume:

two players, player 1 with unlimited money to spend and player 2 with none
a 10% XP boost item in the shop
player 1 buys enough boosts to have one active 100% of the time
everything else equal (time played, drops, etc)
we will ignore gem levelling: 10% boost on 10% of xp earned means gems would level 1% faster, which i feel is too minor to matter at all.

using XP tables from here pathofexilewiki.com, not sure if they are up to date but they will do for the example.

when player 1 hits level 2 (525xp), player 2 is still lvl 1 (477xp) but not far behind, only 48xp behind.
when player 1 hits level 20 (843,709xp) player 2 is lvl 19 (767,008) and about 90K xp behind.

in regular game play this probably isn't a big deal, even at lvl 50, player 2 is only 1 level behind. a common argument against an xp boost in PvE play is that you will out-level the content and make it easier to complete. technically true, therefore P2W, but from a practical standpoint you aren't going to be far enough ahead for it to make a huge difference to game play for a lot of people.

however in a race... let's use this one (first one i found): http://poestatistics.com/events/1-week-turbo-hc/

winner at lvl 71, three-way tie at lvl 70 for second place.

let's use threshold values from the wiki, hitting lvl 70 = 363,906,163xp and lvl 71 = 397,194,041xp.

so let's say player 1, with money to spend on a 10% boost, gets to lvl 71. Player 2, without a boost, gets to lvl 70 to finish second. without that 10% boost, player 1 has actually only earned 361,085,491 xp - not quite enough to reach lvl 70! so - he has paid, and he has won.

as for additional stash tabs, even as a 'convenience' item they save time over mules, it would seem all would agree.

i'm really not too sure how to quantify this time savings, so let's make one up and say it's 10% faster to do the same task with extra stash tabs vs. mules just to keep it simple.

so again, 2 players, one has extra tabs, one does not
gear management tasks performed 10% faster with extra tabs
assume both players returning to manage stashed inventory at the same frequency

so player 1 with extra tabs is back to battle and earning xp quicker than player 2. so in terms of xp/hr, all else equal, it is an advantage.

but in practice this advantage is even smaller than the one gained from a 10% xp boost, because it is only a 10% reduction in downtime which is a fraction of the time spent in the field in our example. so in terms of PvE the impact would be very small indeed.

i'm not so sure there's much advantage in races either... i have watched a few, it is obvious that you need good discipline about what to pick up and what to leave behind. time is of the essence, and after one or two races i am guessing you would really tighten up on inventory management. in my opinion, if you're actually in the running to do well in a race, you're probably being extremely selective about what you pick up, and probably not needing the extra tabs anyway. someone more experienced can correct me if i'm wrong on that.

so that's some thoughts on being F2P by technical definition, with some practical considerations about how it may (or may not) affect your game experience. Thanks for reading, if you did.

TL;DR: Don't worry, it's fine, because math. Have fun!

If you have a pet, you lose time clicking in key and summoning him each game. So its pay to lose.
(sarcasm here)

Pay 2 Win:

1- When content is gated behind a pay wall

2- When gear and/or experience is sold

3- When a Player can purchase an advantage in game

4- Real Money Auction House(Negates RNG completely)

5- Ability to purchase advantages that can only be gained by transactions

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Free 2 play:

1- A FULL & COMPLETE game that is able to be played and downloaded 100% free of cost and played at All times Free of charge

2- A game where only Cosmetic and Vanity items are sold to support the game and NOT any content or In game advantage not otherwise available with out paying for it with real currency.

3- Path of Exile :)