Arc

Sorry, not sure yet how to link my current gear/passive tree. If I did, you'd see my build is progressing well considering I was initially heading for other builds.

Also not sure what you meant by your last paragraph. FWIW, I'm merely looking for help with an Arc build as described above, thus my comments to that end. Yes, perhaps a lot of non-Arc tricks right now - until I can get the things I need for a proper build.

If that is what you meant, I'd say let's not engage in elitism here since it's not conducive to getting and keeping new players in the game. However, I can assure you I have plenty of experience in other MMOs/RPGs where elitism can run rampant, of which I too could've engaged in but never have. Everyone is noob when they start, but I'm confident I'll do well in PoE once I get further on the learning curve.

Otherwise I appreciate your input, Claran. :)

By the nature of an aRPG mixing skills is almost never an effective DPS option.

Well, since I started out knowing nothing about this game, and I've always enjoyed and done quite well with caster classes elsewhere, I made the witch and was going in other directions as I said above. Spark, Fireball, meh but I got an Arc gem and thought the skill would be fun and interesting to base the witch on, so now in the process of converting it and attempting to get all of the skills & supports that would make it self-casting and tanky enough, except per Velk's Devouring Totem.

One issue is it may become awkward as to when/how I should spec out of Raise Zombies once I have the requisite Armor stats and other gems. Minions do a good job but I don't care to micro-manage them in PoE like I did as a higher level warlock in WoW, for example.

And of course, we can't realistically rely on a single mechanic and hope to go far, which is why we have curses, auras, secondary/AoE abilities, etc. I'm hoping I can keep Lightning Trap (for AoE) with Arc viable, instead of Velk's Arc/Storm Call version. So just a few things I may do differently, but yes, Arc will be my main skill until/unless it gives me a reason not to use it.

I'll try to contribute to this thread as I can with as much that's relevant to Arc as my experience merits. I think all who do can benefit others who may lurk the thread searching for info and ideas to improve their builds and playing skills. I certainly have.

I think your and other's dedication to experimenting with, testing, and critiquing Arc thus far are to be commended.

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

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Autocthon wrote:

By the nature of an aRPG mixing skills is almost never an effective DPS option.

Oh, for certain. But if DPS is how you measure a character's efficacy, you're in the wrong thread, friend. :p

Besides, skills work differently in PoE than other ARPGs. You don't have to choose between focusing on different skills of the same element. In Another ARPG, you would have to decide between a skill point to Storm Call, Spark or Arc even if you were a dedicated lightning mage.

Here you can just focus on lightning passives and level all three gems. You can even support all three quite effectively.

So your assertion is a little undercooked. This thread is all about finding a way to make Arc a competitive choice as primary damage, or perhaps to ascertain that was never the skill's intended usage.

Which obviously isn't going to stop me, any more than the Necromancer's lack of melee skills stopped me from coming up with the Meleenancer in D2.

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I was a little drunk when I wrote the above rant. Swyped, actually.

Amazingly, sober me is impressed by it.

Well really I made a one sentence statement meant to underline the way an aRPG works in terms of skill optimization (there is literally no way to get full DPS from two skills at once) that wasn't particularly aimed at your post.

Arc's issues as a primary skill arise form the way it deals DPS though. But the way it deals DPS is why it doesn''t deal a LOT of DPS (despite the very many skills which deal DPS far higher and far more efficiently when properly utilized).

It needs more optimization levers, its inability to benefit from projectile supports is a primary lever to work on for instance, and that's what needs to be figure out. Do note that "lack of levers" is essentially whats makes most skills that are "bad" (hello animate guardian) actually bad in PoE. Because like you said, we have quite the passive tree with which to "focus" our efforts.

After seeing a successful Arc selfcasting build in 75+ maps, I won't say anymore that Arc is in a weak state. His clearspeed is on par with everyone else but on top of that he shockstacks stuff. And all that without very expensive stuff like lowlife shavs.

He does not want to share his build but the message is clear: Arc does not suck, we just have to try harder.

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

The common suggestion to allow Arc to benefit from projectile supports is really missing the point in my opinion. This isn't (or shouldn't) be about making Arc function as other successful skills function, but to make its unique function a success.

I understand what you mean; if all the spells are using the same set of supports (primary: GMP/LMP, secondary: Fork/Pierce/Chain) then we are not seeing much choice and customisation. I have to be clear, there is still some choice here; do you use LMP or GMP as your primary? Fork, Pierce, or Chain as your secondary? However, there is almost a requirement to use one of the primary supports, if not also a secondary, if you want a balanced and competitive spell.

One of the problems Arc has is that it can not use any of these supports (exception of Chain, but we all know the problem there). Now, this has a simple solution, one that Charan hates: make Arc work with those supports. However, I also dislike this solution (if not as strongly as Charan); I would much rather have alternative supports of likewise power - greater diversity and customisation is always something I push for.

Unfortunately, you have to look at it from GGG's perspective; it is much simpler in both time and effort to use what already exists. I think if Arc is to get a buff that makes a difference it will be to allow it to use these supports. If GGG decide to create supports of equal power for spells that can not use the projectile supports then brilliant.

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A point of interest to some, the projectile supports are largely just damage multipliers. Using 'n' to mean the original number of projectiles, with 100% damage to be based on this original number: GMP ((n+4)*0.5), LMP ((n+2)*0.7), Fork (3n*0.7), Pierce (?n), Chain (3n*0.5, except with Arc when it is (n+2)*0.5 - although technically Arc doesn't have projectiles).

They can be quite strong multipliers, depending on the circumstances. The primary supports (GMP, LMP) work best with only one original projectile, but can shotgun, while the secondary supports work the same with any number of original projectiles, but work best when mob positions are ideal. GMP is 2.5 times the damage, LMP is 2.1 times, Fork 2.1 times, Pierce is too variable to give a definite here but can be assumed to be somewhere in the region of perhaps 2 times on average, and Chain is 1.5 times the damage.

Theoretically, because those supports are just damage multipliers (when not considering CoCS, flask charges, etc), Arc could be boosted to be somewhere in the same region without using the supports by say giving it double the base damage per second of the other spells. However, the largest issue here is that no socket is taken up doing this, unlike for other spells.

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If they did innately including the damage multipliers of the projectile supports into Arc it would only fix one area of Arc; the other areas would still need help too. What is the weakest area in my opinion? Mob-scaling. Most other spells are AoE, or can be to an extent (pierce), so many targets are not an issue. If all mobs came in packs of two or three, well there would be no issue for Arc, but they don't (in fact, probably less than 10% of encounters are of this size). Furthermore, Arc's damage is based on hitting with all the chains (three), which you can not do on a single target, where as other spells damage is based on hitting once (whether that is against multiple enemies at the same time or not). This means most other spells are also better against a single target, as well. Mob-scaling is the biggest issue in my opinion concerning Arc.

It is difficult to fix this issue without changing the way Arc works. Arc doesn't need to be good against both many targets (sweeper) and against a single target (bludger), even though a lot of spells are, but it should be good against at least one of those. For those that have not read my previous posts, I use the term 'pronger' to describe Arc's ability to deal with a few targets effectively when you are able to hit each target at least once; even better if, in addition to hitting each target once, are able to hit a target multiple times by bouncing of other targets.

For a sweeper you can add more chains, but I have previously discussed the issues with just doing this (pronger effectiveness vs sweeper effectiveness). My suggestion is to change Arc to using a chain-lightning style that a lot of other games use - increase the number of chains (perhaps as you level), but allow each target to only be hit once. If this is not making sense, think Zeus's chain-lightning in Dota 2. If you don't like this suggestion there are probably many other ways of making Arc an effective sweeper without overpowering it as a pronger.

For a bludger, the easiest suggestion is to just assume that a target will be hit by only one chain and base the damage of a chain from that (effectively what AoE spells do). This, along with the fix for Arc to have a psuedo innate damage multiplier from having a projectile support of 2 times the damage per second of other spells, would make Arc effective at single target (it would basically be a slightly weaker shotgunned spell). With a low number of chains (like we currently have) this is fine, because being able to hit one target in a pack of two mobs twice is not worth balancing around.

The other suggestion that comes to mind regarding a single target, if instead Arc's damage is going to be based on hitting with each chain because of the ability for the chains to bounce back and hit again, then the easiest suggestion is to make any remaining chains that can not bounce away to another target to (have a chance to?) deal their damage to the target they are stuck at.

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

The common suggestion to allow Arc to benefit from projectile supports is really missing the point in my opinion. This isn't (or shouldn't) be about making Arc function as other successful skills function, but to make its unique function a success.

The other option is provide more tools for non-conventional skills.

For instance by removing the damage effectiveness on arc's primary target, making flat damage supports more effective.

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

I believe you saw it, SaRe, but I don't believe that person used Arc from 19 on, and I don't believe he wasn't very well geared.

I think he did, have to ask him. But definitely not well geared at the beginning, as it was his first char in Ambush.

Just googled Velkor's build and the basics look similar. But this might be a problem, Life EB seems to be the (only) way to go.

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

Sorry for my skepticism, but I know this skill pretty intimately, and I believe the 'try harder' is unreasonable as the skill stands.

What I mean is that I was vocal about a buff because I didn't think it could compete with other casters. Now my stance changed to "You can play an Arc selfcaster but with limited choices." GGG needs to be careful with a buff.

I'd still propose a mana cost reduction. This would not affect EB builds because they will have high mana regen for AA anyway but makes CI/Low Life easier.

After Charans invitation, decided to come to this part of the forums. Read a few last pages so far.

Currently i'm leveling a self cast evasion arc shadow. Going through ledge leveling right now. Mostly playing solo and self found so far, except for a few gems. It's my third character in this league, so it's not a completely fresh start, but I didn't find much useful gear for this shadow on my other chars.

My planned lategame builds is something like this:
http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgYBAP0C4wW1B6UOSBB7ES8RlhOeFLAV5xbzF1Ac3CQ8JjwmlSepKwosnC0fLUcvby-dMHEwfDIBOkI9X0SrSVFJskt4TC1QQlFHUlNVS1WuVcZabV8qYeJirGe9bRlte3C7c7N0VXYRfM5_K3_GghCCHofbiGuMNo19jb-PppmamyaboZ2qoqOkkadcqn-quKyYshm0xbb3vjrBAMG0wfPGos3qz2XPetDQ1CPVT9aK1p3ZE9sL2xrdqN533vbfsOOE5OzndOjW62Pr5O5v8GvxdvVL99c=

Basically i'm planning on getting Cloak of defiance, running Clarity, Grace, and if I can manage a good mana pool, maybe Haste. Also going to try using Moonsorrow wand for blind with skeleton totem in in to give skellies a chance to blind. Didn't go for crit, as the base crit chance seems low, hoping to fast cast shock stack will be enough.

Planning to use Arc + Ligning pen + Faster cast + Life leech + Culling strike as main skill with Storm call for support. And maybe Ball lightning for Aoe clearing once it comes out.

So far it's going rather slow, because my gear sucks. I'm using Arc linked only to life leech and unlinked storm call, hopefully can farm up a bit to add lightning pen, that should improve clear speed quite a bit.

Well, i'm mostly using arc, but in some cases, like slow or stationary bosses and large packs of mobs (ledge is a good example) storm call is so much more effective. Don't know if it was suggested, but one way to boost arcs single target performance would be to allow arc to chain of the caster without damaging them if there's no better target to chain from.