Defense > Offense

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globbi wrote:

If you tried to copy maul marauder as templar, it is not strange you felt like a weak clone of one.

Maybe this is the problem but up to Vaal in merci I felt like I could hang with any class. Very tanky, decent DPS, nothing to really complain about.

Once I got deep into the 60s and I died at 71, I didn't feel like I had any strengths to turn to. I wasn't as tanky as any of the witches or maras i was partying with nor could I touch their DPS. DDT played a mara and I partied with him alot, he was doing 3k DPS and I was around 1.5K when I died. The only difference between our weapons were speed. His was 1.2 A/S w/ 300-350 top end, mine was 1 a/s with 440 top end.

Even if he took more DPS nodes than I did he was still able to tank much easier than I could so I had no idea where to go on the skill tree after 60-65, after 70 I just stopped using my points with the intention of respecing a bunch, then I died before I could.

I generally don't like being a caster so maybe I should just stick with duelist as templar/shadow have caster traits and I refuse to play pure classes (mara/ranger).

Im gonna talk straight pure physical melee and range builds lack of decent support gems. Melee physical dmg, mpd on full life,added fire dmg,culling strike,faster projectiles these are the only physical dmg modifier support gems for non ele and crit builds. Since mpd on full life not suiatable for Non CI melee builds we left with 4 dmg modifier support gems 3 for each(melee-ranged).

Bottom line we need more love for physical only builds.Beside than i found offense more important than defense if u have enough resist killing things fast more reliable than endure long for enemy attacks.

To sum up my feelings on teh defense > offense issue:

It appears to me that you don't need any offensive nodes to be doing enough damage t oclear content.

It appears that you have to pick at least 3 rings of health nodes/ES nodes to not die clearing content in melee. The more the safer.

Defensive nodes are generally around +10%, which on the top level armours is +100 defense/evasion for the chest piece alone.

Offensive nodes are generally +6% (general boosters) or 8% (specific weapon boosters) or a mix with of damage accuracy and/or speed. 8% applied to a 500dmg 2h weapon is on 40dmg increase. you would need 2.5 offense nodes to get the same amount increase.

The question then is, does 40dmg boost make me kill things faster than how much longer I would survive with 100 defence boost? I don't think it does.

note: that I didn't take into account attack speed, which would probably bring the 40dmg up to 44, 48, 52 for 1.1 attacks per second, 1.2, and 1.3 respectively.

note 2: the weapon in the above example would have had to have at least 420% damage inceesing modifiers. The armour would only have 100% defence increasing modifiers.

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StillSingle wrote:

To sum up my feelings on teh defense > offense issue:

It appears to me that you don't need any offensive nodes to be doing enough damage t oclear content.

It appears that you have to pick at least 3 rings of health nodes/ES nodes to not die clearing content in melee. The more the safer.

Defensive nodes are generally around +10%, which on the top level armours is +100 defense/evasion for the chest piece alone.

Offensive nodes are generally +6% (general boosters) or 8% (specific weapon boosters) or a mix with of damage accuracy and/or speed. 8% applied to a 500dmg 2h weapon is on 40dmg increase. you would need 2.5 offense nodes to get the same amount increase.

The question then is, does 40dmg boost make me kill things faster than how much longer I would survive with 100 defence boost? I don't think it does.

note: that I didn't take into account attack speed, which would probably bring the 40dmg up to 44, 48, 52 for 1.1 attacks per second, 1.2, and 1.3 respectively.

note 2: the weapon in the above example would have had to have at least 420% damage inceesing modifiers. The armour would only have 100% defence increasing modifiers.

In the case of physical damage, it's also effecting both life and mana leech. It becomes even harder to actually know which is benefiting you more defensively.

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Ceykey wrote:

Bottom line we need more love for physical only builds.

Yes. But the game is called Path of Elements, isn't it? Oh wait - it isn't!

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Altnaharra wrote:

Best never speak of such horrible things as Stun or knockback then, for we would be treading out of the land of 'True' melee now.

come on..

Stun and knockback are easily accessible to ranged characters, I'm not sure what is your point. Viper strike simply does something that ranged characters do even better, claiming it is an advantage over ranged style is wrong, it is just a way to bypass the fundamental disadvantage to a certain degree.

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Altnaharra wrote:

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wiggin wrote:

Stun and knockback are easily accessible to ranged characters, I'm not sure what is your point. Viper strike simply does something that ranged characters do even better, claiming it is an advantage over ranged style is wrong, it is just a way to bypass the fundamental disadvantage to a certain degree.

Alright lets list a couple more melee skills; Leap Slam, Whirling Blades, Flicker Strike, Shield Charge.

It's as though we are playing two completely different games.
I don't think you fully understand Viper strike sir.

Yes those skills exist, I use every single one of them on my characters and my point still stands. Not sure if you are trying to disprove it or just listing melee skills randomly to entertain us.

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Altnaharra wrote:

snip

what was your point again?

Range damage apparently can apply chaos damage better than viperstrike? = negative.
Don't even try to respond with poison arrow.

dealing damage via range is safer than entering melee? while melee based characters have the market on mobility skills, and still cover medium and in some cases long range skills (LS)

Is using LS not 'True' Melee?
Wtf is this true melee garbage? Running into the centre of a crowded room using single target regular attacks while being hit by 7 things?
How about Ground Slam? is that 'True' Melee?

If you're having melee problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems but melee-combat aint' one.

^ Entertained?

Now when I check last page of posts it is quite clear we successfully hijacked this thread and I'm sorry for that, anubite.

With my experience so far, I'd say yes, the skill tree is a failure.

It's Diablo 2's kaizo trap system all over again. Stats for your gear and skills, the rest into Vit. With the added bonus of Vit being one of the stats you use for your gear and skills. And with the skill tree removed.

And with its current implementation, I can't say there's a way to get around that. Damage has to be enough of a treat that even if you do stack life, block, evasion, resist that it can still hurt you if you actually do stack defense. Which will absolutely destroy anyone who doesn't.

The significant damage nodes that only offer flat damage, like 18%, I don't even look twice at. What is that, shoveling in a bunch of crap to get there, for getting to add ~80 damage a second to my attack? Please. +30 Strength any day of the week.

I like the Claw nodes that give you leech. And I love Galvanic Hammer (+20% elemental damage!) and Dervish (+8% block!). Those skills give you a massive boost, and still give you a little of that +% physical damage sauce. These are what weapon nodes should be, something that says "yeah I'm using this weapon/element exclusively" without costing infinity skill points.

Just go and look at all the trash in the bow tree. Perfect Aim is probably the best skill; it increase both your elemental and physical damage at the same time; Greater Impact is complete garbage in comparison. Don't get me started on the Bataan death march of skill points to get the tepid Heavy Draw. Argh. It is The Worst.

I know before I was like "only having to spend a measly ~22 points to max out minions is silly. You can't even max out bows!" But in retrospect, now, I think 22-30 points to mostly max out a weapon is about ideal. Weapon nodes should be consolidated. And if you want to specialize in two attack types go ahead; you're sacrificing survivability to do it.

Or if you want to stretch to those really sweet +Projectile nodes in Duelist, Shadow, and Jack zones (because they really are nice. You're increasing elemental damage increased by physical damage increased by your projectile node; it's an ouroboros of stuff and things) and the IAS or Critical there, yeah you will be able to waste all your skill points for marginal gain. That's just an intrinsic part of how the tree is set up, unless they want to suddenly cull certain stats out of certain zones. Having good offense nodes available won't be able to change that.

This thread has 4 pages? Not even going to read it, seeing as there's probably an argument despite the OP being right. Defence in the tree is vastly superior to offence.

In reply to the main post, I've been conducting an experiment to see how far I could get with very few, if any defensive nodes.

The easiest way to do so is with a speedy ranged character, but a number of conditions need to be met.

1) It's better if the mana pool is effectively infinite, to allow for constant spell firing.
2) It's always useful to have minions and totems to distract opponents if necessary
3) And of course, it's always useful to take every extra damage perk you can get your hands on

In the end my path led to make a ranged archer, that has high enough dps to basically 1-2 shot every monster at her level, currently in the late forties.

I would expect at some point near the end game the enemies health will be too high to continue these one shot kills, however, if I can beef up the minions and totems with skills instead caving on defensive nodes, then the it's possible.