Ranger Start Tree feedback

Maybe introduce some ranger skills...than fit some nodes around it...

Like some new kind of utility traps (like beartrap, less damage but more root)
Throw spider web (root)
Stun traps
Ice traps
Pets! ? (ugh hunters aka wow haha)

Just make the ranger to more "ranged"...instead of what everyone else saying "give it more life nodes"....

Also fix the high crit phys vs reflect...what's the point going high crit damage if it instant kills you...(evade doesn't fixes this)

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HollowedOnes wrote:

Or honestly drop the entire Ranger with melee weapons cause with Claws and Daggers at Shadow and Axes and Swords at duelist why should I want to play a melee Ranger?

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tr4nznrg wrote:

Just make the ranger to more "ranged"...instead of what everyone else saying "give it more life nodes"....

The point of the skill trees and different character classes is NOT to remove possibilities of play but add to them. Saying that the ranger should *only* be a ranged bow user removes any use of the tree for melee characters at all and thus limits what rangers are capable of. Instead, thinking out of the box should be encouraged and is with most of the other classes.

Even the witch tree has ES nodes that melee shadows/templars make use of. The same kind of usage of some kind needs to be viable if a character wants to dip into the ranger side of the skill tree. The whole point of this thread is to think of ways to make the ranger bow/melee builds more viable and have better options and nodes that even other classes would consider going into.

Here are a few quick thoughts that could improve the ranger starting area:


-Make more unique notable nodes that make it more appealing to go into the ranger area as another class. Perhaps projectile speed or non-weapon specific physical damage (like on a rustic sash).

-Make life nodes available earlier to the bow and melee paths.

-Improve the life nodes at the end of the clusters, especially that five node one at the top.

-Change the melee path so you aren't forced into one handed, block, dual wield, or crit. Start off the melee path with more general melee nodes and then have more options to branch off to more specialized nodes from there.

-The large bow cluster with Greater Impact needs some better or more interesting nodes.

-The evasion nodes at the start need a huge buff. As the pure dexterity class, Ranger should be the master of evasion. The Leather and Steel clusters in the Duelist area give almost as much evasion for only 3 points and they also give armor and no movement penalty.

-The Avoid Stun and Stun Recovery nodes should either be buffed or assimilated into other notable nodes. No one ever takes these.

-The area needs more/better mana nodes. Mana Geyser could be moved in closer to the starting area.

<redacted>

The more I think about it the more I see how broken the CI is and how little typical ranger can exploit that. It has very little to do with the starting area nodes but it has the same effect. Given how burst damage has not been really nerfed while life has been significantly so CI is almost mandatory. Kripp summed it up nicely in today's video and unfortunately he is completely right. Because that the wisest thing to do is to start templar/shadow for that +int nodes and take CI.

This brings us to question of evasion viability. As is it is used to convert itself to Armor. Probably every lvl75+ dex based user goes this way. Evasion is nice for puny mobs but for Kole or that jumping Hilock in Dunes maps (he surprised me, never seen him jumping before..) it does absolutely nothing. So in effect ranger has little life, little ES and tons of useless evasion (plus 'mobility' that is a theoretical concept faced with chain-chaining Kole or even hordes of fast trash).

I do not think that polishing Ranger start (that is very needed btw) will change how people perceive value of health/armour/evasion/ES. Currently the whole concept of Ranger - dex/evasion - simply does not work. I've learned it hard way and will not try this again - you can do exactly the same with any other class but safer and in most cases also better. Sad part is that Ranger is a very appealing concept that new players will embrace and be very disappointing when they realize that their character simply cannot work they way they though it can (that is without CI and/or IR). In the long term this is a far bigger problem than mediocre starting nodes.

BTW I know that I'm #739934 person that noticed that..

BTW2 another problem that is rather disturbing is how Lioneye' Bow >>>>> any other bow. Other unique bows are very smartly designed and each of them (well almost) has its niche and is great in its own way. Except Lioneye that simply is BIS with no competition. Not all people are using them because of price but thats the ONLY reason. This is a sign of an overpowered item.

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SaranCadrey wrote:

The point of the skill trees and different character classes is NOT to remove possibilities of play but add to them. Saying that the ranger should *only* be a ranged bow user removes any use of the tree for melee characters at all and thus limits what rangers are capable of. Instead, thinking out of the box should be encouraged and is with most of the other classes.

Of course the point is to have a variety of builds, but currently the Ranger area offers nothing to compete with the Duelist/Shadow areas in melee weapons. And honestly its in the 'pure' Dexterity area of the tree there are two weapon types that deal with pure dexterity (and one of them is swords which is done better elsewhere).

If you want to have a melee Ranger area then the area has to claim a part of the game as its own. Basically Ranger needs to say here is where X is, if you want to do X come to ranger; and as it is the pure dex area of the skill tree that leaves Rapiers, Bows, Evasion, and Accuracy.

Accuracy is ever where and considered horrible.

Evasion is around the Ranger and considered horrible.

Bows are around the Ranger and people to come for bow stuff.

Rapiers are swords and the Duelist area has far far better passives that the Ranger is simply not going to be able to counter.

The other classes have weapons/defense types Ranger has Bow and Evasion as its "unique" attractions.

If you want people to come to Ranger for melee the Ranger has to have something unique.

If I had to choose something for melee it would be attack speed, but I would remove/down grade most attack speed buffs from the other classes to make Ranger really stand out. However I don't think that it benefits the game to do so.

EDIT:

Or now that I think about it you could change a lot of the the bow nodes to Projectile Nodes giving them a broader appeal. Then you could have some really cool builds where players come from all over for the neat projectile nodes since projectile affects such a large amount of skills.

I think, as some have said, it might all come down to how GGG intends to change the nature of Dexterity and what kind of benefits a character would get from it. Right now, as most have already said, accuracy can be pointless with RT and evasion is the least useful and least reliable of the three defensive stats.

I agree, attack speed might be a good replacement for accuracy from dexterity in usefulness. Evasion, on the other hand, needs some kind of buffer to make it a more reliable type of a defense. Dodge helps with this but of course this is not enough. Defense shouldn't be made to be some sort of dice roll, a bad roll and you get 1-shot. Halving armor and energy shield doesn't help at all either and still makes them an insufficient buffer from being 1-shot by a boss's unavoidable attacks. That is the consensus.

I think the issue with accuracy is that it's tied to criticals because of the RT keystone. If your character doesn't plan on criticaling, then there's absolutely no point in investing into dexterity/accuracy when you can grab the RT keystone and never miss. At this point, I highly doubt we'll see a change in dexterity mechanics, but I would like Dex to provide additional critical chance for weapons as a third stat. This would make stacking Dex very ideal for crit-based characters. Honestly, building up crit for non-dagger or non-spell based characters can be a huge passive investment, and it makes people choose the easier way out instead, that being spells, daggers, or RT. (I do like the buffs to the crit chance passives to bows in the new patch.)

As for evasion passives, I believe all of those passives should be backed with a flat life # because evasion by itself is not enough.

I've been playing since open beta so I might not be so experienced as others posting here
but here's my two cents.

1. As many people have said before the area is a mess while all other classes have
great and clean two routes.The ranger's area is really complicated with no good reason for that.

It can be way less complicated and easier to theorycraft a build.

2. The nodes are not so great also.Too many 6%,4% pretty useless nodes.
6% bow physical damage and 2% attack speed ? Come on...

If GGG doesn't want to remove them at least they could be better.A lot better.

3. There are many life nodes.Yes many.But 9 out of 10 are just plain 6% ones.
Not even one life regen node and only Thick Skin being a great one and the outer
8% +20 strength the second best.

Some better early life nodes would be great.The two first after Finesse would be
greatly appreciated if they were something like 8% life and 6% life & 1.0% life regen.

4. Keystones are meh.I won't talk about IR cause I'm talking about that later but all the other ones aren't so great.Other chars come to ranger area 9 out of 10 times to take IR and some Lightning Strike or Rain of Arrows chars to take Point Blank.

5. Accuracy.I have 330 dex from tree.29 from my quiver.24 from Maligaro's,a 12% accuracy node and 201 in a helmet.My gear isn't great and since I've respecced I have to optimize it but
just give me a break 383 Dex,12% accuracy node and some accuracy and my chance to hit is 75%.
Ok we'll know that this isn't the truth actually but a life crit ranger has to use passives for life,resists,accuracy,crit chance,crit multi and of course mana regen.All these nodes are
either at the shadow area or the duelist area so go on fellow ranger take the highways to get some at the end useless dex nodes.

6. Evasion.I don't think I have something to add to what everyone said.Stacking Evasion to turn it into armor is what almost everyone does.

7. Some possible notables I would like to see/have would be EV & resists nodes or ev/life/life regen.

All chars have something that separates them from the others.Witch has ES,Spell nodes,Wand nodes and of course Inner Force and Eldritch Battery near her area.Templar is by far the best starting area,it has everything.Duelist has life,armor,attack speed,melee damage,block nodes,mana regen.Almost all classes can do whatever they want.Being a ranger means bow and RT
8 out 10 times or melee classes who have to go either RT or go to shadow area to get some great nodes.Oh and one or two wand rangers.Nothing else.

The fundamental problem with the ranger starting area is the low value of dexterity nodes (relative to strength nodes). Rangers that stay in the dexterity area cannot build sufficient life.

Rangers are totally life-based characters, as are marauders and duelists. Strength nodes provide a huge benefit to life pool. As a ranger, even if you take all of the nearby % life nodes, and have decent % life increase, your health is much lower, because of the lower base.

The mechanics of evasion are even more dependent than armor on having a large life pool, but as a ranger this cannot happen unless you spend your points on the left side of the tree. The most recent balance changes (reduced mob damage) reduced the value of evasion relative to armor. As an evasion char, you may not get hit as often, but when you do, it really hurts. Thus you need more life to cushion the damage.

Rangers need a way to build their base life to an acceptable level (probably higher than armor-based chars). Perhaps the new Iron Will keystone could provide a life increase to make evasion viable, but ideally evasion would work as a defense without a keystone.