so, about that 3.25 melee rework - how to not kill melee entirely in few steps:

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Baharoth15 wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

is there a reason you pretend that damage values of these skills and archetype as a whole is not a problem?

you see 2300 STR Warpath build with Paradoxica dealing 50m damage - 'ye, melee good'

i see a 600pdps 1h barely scratching 5m with all marks checked in POB

on the same f.. skill. and that 600pdps weapon seems to costs more than ENTIRE stacker's gear (i know there is no limit with synth %attr implicits but that example had just ones coming from ring corruptions)


if your reaction to this is 'just play whats good' then.. ok I guess. in fact people do this - all mathil's innovative, 'nobody believed it possible' builds are XXX stackers when the skill choice is irrelevant, it is the flat damage from stacking that matters. and ofc - attr stacking also provides defenses, in heaps.

once you remove str/int/dex stacking, ES stacking (Ephemeral Edge/Energy Blade), faux melee (Molten Strike aka Nimis doubles my damage for free!) and stick to phys weapons - aka the choice that does not need to be best but it should at least work - you end up with 5m (unless it uses external source of flat damage: Rage, Trauma/Support) and locked out out of content

phys weapons are undertuned as f.. compared to various 'magic' stackers. white weapon with synt implicit + gear with some semi garbage rolls > any mirrored phys weapon that ever existed

this is a problem - content seems to be balanced without taking that into account

why i care? because if I need to do the stacking bs it means that we enter D3 build system when the character is the same, just swap the skill and 1-2 supports. how boring and small


this is not about skills, their mechanic or whatnot. ffs people are wiping the floor with - Boneshatter. vs bosses it is nothing but an autoattack - the epithomy of suck. but it deals damage, 2-3times more than next best option. and people do just fine - because the skill provides that what is missing: flat base damage. stuff that hurts melee players on a fundamental level - to reach big numbers you need scaling vectors and solid base values. scaling vectors are mostly universal - spells/minions share the same stuff - but the base for melee is garbage. it cannot end with parity and it doesnt. unless 'magic' creates good base from pair of stinking boots

For one, i can get more than 5 mio dps out of even a 400 pdps weapon, even disregarding Paradoxica and stuff. I do NOT consider strength stacking when judging melee DPS and frankly if 5 mio is all you can manage using a freaking 600 pdps weapon then that's a "build issue", big time.

That said, if your argument is that stat stacking and it's powerlevel is a problem relative to "normal" scaling methods then that's actually a valid point to make though i am not sure i agree given the large amount of investment needed to get decent dps out of strength stacking. But it's something i can somewhat relate to at least.

However, if that's your alley, then at least realize the fact that this isn't a melee problem. Tornadoshot prenerf, the skill you hailed as the best skill in the game, used stat stacking on the mid/high end in the form of omni.
Most spell builds use ES Stacking with energyblade, or manastacking with indigon/archemage or power/frenzy charge stacking to get the dps they have.

The only skills that get away with "lvl 20 base gem damage and some increase" which would be the equivalent to your "phys weapon + some increase" are corpse life based skills. Your average spell won't do shit like that and bow skills will do even less.

Honestly, the more i read your posts the more i get the feeling you aren't even talking about "melee", you just talk about a very tiny and specific subset of phys based melee that drops dozens of available scaling vectors just because.
Like did you seriously exclude rage as well? And it's got be phys based weapons, so elemental based ones are also "exceptions"? If you reduce it down that much then, yeah i agree with you. That kind of melee build is shit and does no damage but honestly, you reap what you sow. That's not a melee archetype issue anymore, it's an issue with your choices when you make a build.

I also don't agree with that from a variety/design perspective. If gems/base weapons had the amount of base damage where they could do 50+ mio dps without any other scaling vectors then that would limit build variety more than it helped because GGG would have to be super restrictive with additional vectors or damage would get completely ridiculous. Imo melee damage is not and should not be defined solely by the gem you use and the weapon. That would actually be D3 itemization. Scalingoptions aside from the gem/weapon should exist and be usable.

Personally i think GGG should loosen the access to decent midtier weapons by a lot, there are a bunch of affordable options still but the latest patch reduced the number again. If something should change it's the accessibility of good weapons early on, more usable uniques with high drop rates, easier crafting or heck make vendors useful by letting them sell decent magic bases with a tier 3 or so prefix.

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sidtherat wrote:

so, first of all - please, please, do not do a melee REWORK. chance you do it correctly the first time are nil (Call to Arms.. just ponder on it for a moment)

to the point.

what melee needs is numbers not gargantuan reworks. ReplicaAlberonSTRstacker dual strike is a great build. Dual Strike suddenly is fine as a skill but you cannot make it good without some weird gotcha scaling. phys weapons just cannot compete and are absurdly hard to craft at the same time (excluding graveprinting but that insanity will 1000% going to die next patch)

why Boneshatter is good? numbers. trauma support with Frosbreath? numbers. bleed is fine - but on a bow, because it deals tripple damage. numbers

so:

just add flat damage to ALL skills and increase ALL bases (the slow ones and 2handers - more). you had no problems doing that with bows (that didnt need it in the first place) i cannot see a valid reason to not do it here. if Voidforge is a problem - deal with Voidforge. it cannot hold entire archetype hostage.

that alone would do wonders. (less resources spent on damage -> more resources spent on fun stuff)

and then, the 'unf.. this' part (no particular order):

- unf.. the Seismic Cry. this gem is such a meme
- unf.. the Call to Arms. the gem was a net loss to melee and net buff to everyone else. please, take this seriously. you wont 'fix' melee if you pretend it is otherwise.
- unf.. the melee supports. in particular: Fist of War (+make its cooldown modifiable!), Brutality, BloodLust, Damage on Full Life
- unf.. the Fortify. big change: bake it into all melee skills with very short duration + change passives to provide increased duration. cannot be (cheaply) abused by casters/CoCS, solves Fortify problems for melee. it should be ALMOST free to get and use for a melee build. several passives or a garbage support is NOT free!
- unf.. the Gladiator. give him the spell block back. it STILL wont make it compete with Necromancers (they have 75/75 block anyway, lol) but it would at least make it a class you pick for SOMETHING (like Pious Path on Inquisitor)


now the small buffs:

- warcries. the paper stuff they give is already meh but most players do not know that most of the time warcries give them nothing. the duration on them is VERY short and the bonus they give in real scenario is rarely 30% of the potential maximum. also the warcry passives are very, very point inefficient. condense the passives by 1/3, increase base warcry buff duration by 50%

- exerted %damage. way, way too low. maybe make these values scalable with Warcry Buff Effect or something? right now 20% is not enough to build around. %increase in general is a weak stat

- stun. melee's alternative to freeze. but unlike freeze it is expensive to get and fails when most needed. it is one of the very few systems with caps: hard cap on boss stun and soft-cap on stun threshold reduction. freeze has neither. why? perma freezing is cool but stunning is not? why?

- stun. stun should prevent stuff like essences from casting spells. currently it doesnt so it is actually pointless because nobody cares if it moves, it is all about the novas of death. stunned essences are fully operational for some dumb reason

- ancestral totems. if they are mandatory (and I wish they stay as i know any rework will end with net nerf) they should have a fading % damage reduction after spawning - or be outright Mirage Archers, aka untouchable. 50% damage down the drain because boss area is one giant degen puddle? great

- melee reservations. currently baseline melee reservation (herald, b&s, f&s etc) give ~9-12% more damage. and most players try to get all of them (to shore up damage). make it ~15% so we can keep the same damage and have some spare sockets for once

- fix that damn Leap Slam bug!

- warcries. Leap Slam should not use exerts/proc Tawhoa's Chosen. Leap Slam doing so is sole reason why both feel like shit. revert the mastery, if you insist keep if for Trans Leap Slam that actually is made to deal damage.

- nova spells on mobs should NOT shotgun, under no circumstances.

- add 'movement speed' and some form of ailment protection to bottom-left part of the tree. there is nothing. and no, getting +max res is not equivalent (esp when +max res is the WEAKEST of all form of defences nowadays)

- add +LGOH and FLAT regen to bottom-left part of the tree. add them to EXISTING passives. no need to create passive bloat

- fix/remove some terribad clusters: Inexorable, Cauterisation (the notable is 100% garbage), Fending (knocback is good, this cluster isnt), Dance of Blades, Assured Strike and all the block stuff around Versatile Combatant


i sure would like to see an actuall high effort and successful melee rework but after literal string of collateral nerfs melee got i do not believe it is possible

so just fix easy stuff. numbers++ do work. you use numbers-- to nerf stuff, right?



and the big stuff:


- Determination and Grace. are utter disgrace. getting AR/EV on items feel pointless. have no idea what to do with it but it is very wrong that people pick 'phys taken as fire' over T1 AR roll on an AR chest. these two auras are MANDATORY to reach AR/EV values that make an impact. this is very wrong.

- Spell Suppression. cheeze, lazy stat introduced to make certain endgame parts doable. since most end-endgame spells have penetration, +max res is mostly pointless, suppression covers it all. lower the respectable pen AND/OR lower the damage output + reduce suppression base reduction from 50 to 30%. 'if something is mandatory, look at it' - suppression is busted strong and everyone who can - maxes it. it is unhealthy and limits design space

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OverlyAggro wrote:

Truth is, most things that feel pointless in this game are that way because you don't know how to play. There are entire builds around zdps weapons that use aura stacking w/ deter/grace/smite to build their entire characters, and thats much better than you x10 dipping on timeless warcry effect, str stacking, and Iron Will. Go play Call to Arms + General's Cry.