Explosive Concoction

Level 90

Playing with level 30 Explosive concoction.

I can clear one pack in a thrown.

Oh hello there /InsertRandomBossNameHere/ it would be grat if i did damage, and not have to HIT AND RUN FOR 5 MINUTES.

Just lost agains redeemer, he one shot me like hell he do.

But hey I throw stupid 0 damage flask at his face.

Well time to go check poe.ninja most played builds with actual damage.

I tryed.

I enjoy the skill quite a bit. The Clear speed is nice with GMP + Carcass Jack + Frostferno

Single Target is far more difficult (even with swapping some gems around), mainly due to charges running out (these are on flasks that have +100 charges, refill on crits, etc). You need the shotgunning effect of GMP, but smaller bosses are harder to get that effect.

I was disappointed to see that Reflect Elemental hurts EC users. In theory, we're throwing bombs - it seems like that shouldn't affect us on reflect. With the requirement of an empty main hand - being reflect immune doesn't feel like too much to ask.

I’ve been casually playing explosive concoction since league start trying to make it work. It’s a fun skill that has interesting downsides that need to be built around, but the skill starts to dwindle as I’ve been approaching T16s - tho mind you I still have gear upgrades in sight. Here is my take on this new skill and possible ways to buff it.

I normally have 100% up time on my crit flask, lightning flask, and Taste of Hate. Dying Sun is up 95% during mapping, and selectively during bossing. I use Smite to trigger Trinity support and the Smite buff.

Pros:

- Skill designed for shotgunning
- Can hit with all 3 elements simultaneously
- Can hit multiple times in one throw - important for having on hit effects triggered such as ele ailments or curse on hit, then having the remaining projectiles benefit from this
- Interesting interactions with flasks, especially now that you can have each ele flask up 98% of the time for ~30% less ele dmg taken
- Leveling felt great due to easy early access of flat added damage. I was 2 or 3 shorting act bosses.
- Pathfinder has perma flasks up during mapping, even Dying Sun!
- Unique “toy” for theory crafters

Cons:

- Obvious skill limitations like no weapon, or requiring certain flasks to be used for extra added dmg
- Small base AOE can restrict the number of possible overlaps for shotgunning. - Currently sitting at +285% inc AOE and the skill radius is only 35 in PoB.
- Poor scaling with attack speed due to running out of flask charges.
- Big one: Long boss fights are draining on flask charges. Even with 100% flask duration, -35% flask charges used (causes skill to use 2 charges instead of 3 per attack), and 10% chance for flasks not to consume charges, you cannot reliably keep on attacking at full DPS, especially if you have any sort of attack speed
- Stretched for passive points. Need to invest in AOE, DPS, flasks, and still have some sort of defense at the end of the day
- Poor scaling at end game due the above problems. Feels hard capped in terms of DPS potential.

Proposed Changes: Now here are some things that might make the skill scale better at end game. It already feels good for early game but as I mentioned above, T16s can be troublesome even with decent gear.

More interactions with flask passives.

- It would be great if “inc flask effect” nodes improve the base damage. It makes sense thematically and typically this is a stat which you acquire in later in the game.
- Have the % chance of flask charges not to be consumed belt affix work with this skills flask charge consumption
- Potentially rework flask charge consumption to allow better scaling with attack speed. Maybe “consumes 5 charges per second if the skill was used recently” or something along those lines. This way you can scale attack speed and not be penalized by quickly running out of flask charges since the skill would use a fixed amount per second.

TLDR: Fun new skill feels good early game but falls of late game due to sustaining flask charges in bosses with few adds, and no attack speed scaling. Improve it by leaning more into flask affix/passives interactions so skill can scale better in end game.

My PoB: https://pastebin.com/ENc2fkGs

Haven’t really played with the skill yet just mess around pob with it.

My only feedback for now will be on aoe scaling and the feedback i see on every thread that the aoe feel too small and top hard to scale for clearing.

You could change the splash of the impact from a circle to a rectangle going forward.
That new splash could scale in length with proj speed and in width with aoe scaling.
That splash could also scale with how far we are throwing our flasks. Not too sure about this one as we are throwing it at our feets most of the time i imagine.

With greater volley it would make a big rectangle with all projectiles
With greater multiple projectile it would something like a cone i guess as it doesn’t throw projectile in a straight line.

I think it would be thematicaly more accurate as we are throwing flasks with a momentum.

"

Nav_GGG wrote:

Post your feedback for this skill here!

Make sure you concisely state your character build, level, and other complimenting abilities you have when you talk about a skill - The more we know about your character, the better we can understand your feedback.

I have responded to nearly every post on reddit and these forum regarding Explosive Concoction. Oh boy do I have plenty to say.

Character build: Pathfinder. Critical strike build. Using Sapphire and Topaz flask both with Harvest Enchant for increased flask charges. Frostferno corrupted with +2 AoE gem, amulet with +1 gem level. Secrets of Suffering while running Skitterbots for Chill, Shock along with Scorch, Brittle, and Sap when critting.
Defensive layers of Acrobatics and Phase Acrobatics, Wind Dancer, Fortify, and Blind from Flesh and Stone. HP is right under 4k. I was able to survive several strikes from A3 Sirus thanks to Fortify and Wind Dancer. I also run Mob Mentality to occasionally gain Endurance Charges. I would run CwDT+Immortal Call but I do not have the sockets...because no weapon...
https://pastebin.com/kN5K0Kew

Level: 93 after 330 deaths and /played of 6 days, 11 hours, 18 minutes, ...no one cares about seconds.

Other complimenting abilities. Shield charge + fortify + faster attacks. Arcanist brand + Wave of Conviction + Sniper's Mark. Skitterbots. Flesh and Stone. Precision. General's Cry with Mutewind Pennant for permanent Onslaught. Did you know General's Cry is the only warcry with a 4 second cooldown. Did I just get that nerfed? Probably.


https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgNtBsD0rgG_vQDSM1Ex2whVGU5n0xQTq is a playlist of Explosive Concoction being able to clear almost high-end content. Actually high-end content is absolutely miserable due to limitation: "Consumes 3 Charges from 1 Flask of each valid type, if possible." 3.15 was the patch that introduced the largest and most disruptive changes to flasks. This skill plays right into that. I cannot stress how absolutely terrible that feels where protective layers were attacked and then further attacked when choosing to play Explosive Concoction. Forfeiting 2 additional flasks of any type to still deal inadequate damage is horrible. But it gets worse. because. they. run. out. Why was "3" the magic number? People that play Explosive Concoction already forfeit a main hand weapon and two flask slots. Conceptually it sounds fun. Realistically, it is miserably because the skill needs good attack speed. Oh wait, is that the next issue with this skill? It is. Before that paragraph, tying damage to a design consideration to still have subpar damage compared to other builds that then can be depleted removing 40% of your damage is absolutely horrible design. I even built crit for Master Surgeon but you guys nerfed Master Surgeon. It was nerfed so hard that the ascendancy is worse than what you receive on other options where you gain charges on critical strikes. Master Surgeon gains 1 charges while other instances gain 1 charge for all the flasks. I cannot even.

Attack Speed. Did you know that if you input a movement or skill while throwing that the game inputs animation cancelling. Probably yes. But did you know that an EC throw that has undergone animation cancelling still consumes the 3 charges? Probably not! Go test it. Check your flask charges, input an EC throw, input a move to cancel the throw, and then check your flask charges. You just lost 3 charges despite never throwing an EC. Now, imagine you are in a high stress situation where you have to throw EC to deal damage to, you know, get rid of the enemies causing the high stress situation. You can burn through your charges stupidly quick AND do no damage due to animation cancelling. What is the attack speed on this scale? The same as a two-handed weapon??? That is a ton of animation cancelling and charges and overall damage just gone. Best part, if you increase attack speed, you severally increase flask charges consumed, which results in empty Topaz and Sapphire flask, which is 40% of your damage just gone. All while also removing defensive aspect that are afforded by flasks. Amazing.

Alright, AoE time! It is tiny. You know how small it is? It is so small that it doesn't even increase in size with level. Go ahead and grab some AoE increase. Still tiny. But the skill can shotgun and having a bigger AoE makes it easier to shotgun!.... THE SKILL NEEDS TO SHOTGUN. Also, we have given up a mainhand weapon and two flasks to play a slow-attack skill that does not benefit from warcries or most damage increases on the tree. Like, a main epicenter of damage with a secondary AoE like Shocknova would make this skill feel better and look cooler. Go ahead and look at EC. How cool does that look? Not very cool. Sounds great, crisp with just the right blend of explosion. Looks like a spore plant from Toxic Rain just burped. A secondary explosion effect or shards because glass literally just went flying everywhere would be cool and would more importantly increase the AoE of the skill while not making shotgunning too easy. But I honestly cannot stress how tiny the AoE is and since it is so small, the invest into AoE is even worse. You guys nerfed AoE increases right around Legion and have since then been liberal with AoE sizes because AoE is such a huge component of quality of life. Then Explosive Concoction happened. Like, the glass doesn't even shard off and do damage or anything. Lancing Still and Frost Blades have massive quality of life for such the dumbest animation in the game but that little extra makes the skill feel amazing. EC has the burp of a Toxic Arrow spore and a nice sound.

And talking about design, you have Spectral Shield Throw, the skill that throws a shield that causes shards to fly around everywhere. It's one of the most played skills because everything about that build increases damage while increasing defensive and zero cost of quality of life. It's just comical that EC is a shield, though can be a quiver build.....but then no fortify or good movement skills.......that just sucks in damage, clear, quality of life, defensive layers when compared to SST. It's just comical. Oh, and they still get to have a weapon. Oh, and they still get two additional flasks for defense or damage.

How EC hits things. It literally flies through things to get to the cursor. Now, great conceptually, makes absolutely no sense in practice. Why does it not work, because of doorways and trees. I get to through the EC and have the fly through targets while dealing zero damage to the targets and most likely missing them in the process. Now, if the object is a door or wall or tree, there goes most of your damage AND the EC can still fly through enemies and land behind them dealing zero damage. Coding for that physics interaction may be difficult but it apparently does exist because EC explodes on doors and walls and trees. Just sigh. EVEN BETTER is that sometimes it uses the cursor location during your movement skill. Test this out. Shield charge and input an EC. Where does it fly to? Where you cursor currently is or where it was at the start of the shield charge? EC is thrown where the cursor was at during the start of the shield throw. Super annoying. Same thing occurs when using Dash. I would like to hit the things that I aim at instead of the ground that has no threats. This is honestly an engine issue, but it would honestly just be cool if across the entirety of the game if skill will target where we input when we want the skill to work. This honestly would probably not be an issue if the AoE was significantly bigger are scalable (begin rant: like, you know how there is damage effectiveness, why is AoE scale effectiveness tied to the base AoE instead of to an AoE effectiveness parameter, end rant) OR if the skill had a shard effect like SST, Frost Blades, etc or second AoE like Shock Nova which is still just a generally bigger AoE. THE BEST PART THOUGH is that projectile speed determines how long the projectile is in the air. It does not matter how close or far you through it. Not investing into projectile speed feels horribly.

What else, what else, what else. Building ignite is pointless because Fireball exists. Someone built a poison variant that uses Plague Bearer for map clearer because EC feels horrible when map clearing for all the reasons I have stated. Wait, someone used a minion for map clearer. That was the fantasy of the build, right? Use the skill for poison applications and with a minion solely dedicated for map clearing, right?

Summary: the AoE is tiny and is impossible to scale. The map clear due to the AoE feels really bad that someone decided to use Plague Bearer instead of suffering the teeny-tiny AoE. The damage feels fine when Topaz and Sapphire flasks has charges, but immediately feels horrible when empty. It is incredibly easy to go empty on flask charges because animation cancelling consumes flask charges. Animation cancelling occurs when an attack is inputted followed shortly thereafter by any other action though generally a movement action. Also, when using movement skills like shield charge or dash, EC will target the cursor at the beginning of the movement skill instead of where it was activated. This may cause the skill to fly through targets or to be thrown behind you effectively allowing enemies to attack you. Master Surgeon as a way to sustain EC flask charges simply does not work because it gains 1 charge for 1 flask instead of 1 charge for every flask. When throwing EC, it will fly through enemies but not object effectively meaning you can do zero damage to things close to you while really giving the door or wall or tree a nice explosive polish. Compound that issue with the movement issue where EC will be thrown where the cursor was at the beginning of the movement, and you got yourself a stew of zero damage because you cannot hit enemies. The final summary note is that clearing with EC is simply not comfortable. AoE being non-existent is probably the culprit. The AoE is probably tiny because shotgunning probably became too easy to enable. Adding a sharding effect due to the flask exploding (similar to a spectral shield exploding does upon impact.....right.....) will still forces players to build AoE if they want to shotgun but will also force players to scale attributes to projectiles if they want to maximize the quality of life of shards for clearing maps. Oddly enough with the shard quality of life, you already have to build projectile speed because EC feels horrible without projectile speed.

Rant on doorways that has nothing to do with EC: I still do not know how you guys have not simply increased the sizes of all doorways by 20%-50%. They are tiny. I know you guys love to respect architecture and whatnot, but doorways with enemies that have projectiles are death traps. End rant.

I've played a couple of characters trying Explosive Concoction -- both straight PF and also Scion PF/Zerker.

Overall, I feel the skill doesn't work in a great way because it fires in a line but also doesn't hit anything on the way to where you've fired it, so you end up having to basically drop them at your feet as you run through packs to ensure as much overlap as possible.

A friend and I were discussing the skill, as we'd both tried it this league and came up with the idea that instead of throwing the flasks directly, you could instead throw a single satchel that explodes on contact, clustering say 2-3 projectiles around it, with added proj only affecting the number of cluster projectiles. This would stop it from feeling so lackluster in both clearing and also in bosses, especially smaller bosses. Even if you had AoE affect both the distance between the cluster projectiles as well as the actual AoE of the cluster projectile damage itself, I think it would feel overall a lot better to use.

Could also have flask charges interact somewhat differently, say having Topaz flask charges give projectiles a chance to chain. Since you're throwing a satchel of flasks, it would make sense to have all 3 ele damage types at once without the flasks, even if the damage was roughly around the same as base fire damage, but split between the 3 elements then have flasks change interaction in some other way.

The idea for the skill is great, but it does lack late-game viability, especially for what you give up in exchange for just the chance to use the skill.

I wanted to shamefuly advertise my guide for Elementalist Explosive Concoction:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3175188

I've shared there all my thoughts and advices from the experience of playing this skill for over a month.

small suggestion for Explosive Concoction:

usable with weapons, but doesn't scale weapon damage except maybe claw stats.

conclusion:
1: make this skill gem also usable while weapons are equipped.
2: claws could be the only weapon type that scales with this skill gem.

Thank you for reading.
(I will also post this skill gem suggestion for the Skillgem "Poisonous Concoction")

I plan to start my first Pathfinder as Explosive Concoction. I've been reading some guides and one complain that comes up all the time is costing too many Sapphire and Topaz charges. You are basically carrying two flasks that you are not even using. It seems the build grabs too many Flask related passives and modifiers and not enough to increase damage.


The skill gem is called Explosive Concoction. Perhaps it should be rename to Elemental Concoction?

If the goal is to utilize Topaz and Sapphire, maybe they need to add more like:

Topaz allows bigger explosion?
Sapphire allows 1-3 chaining?


I am okay with being a slower attack skill. Not everything needs to attack 4-5 times per second.


I think the idea of stacking Flask modifiers for flask throwing is a fun idea.


PS: I looked into Flask cluster jewel and honestly, there is not much synergy except for Alchemist Genius. The extra damage during Flask effect is not strong enough to use that cluster. Perhaps add new Flask passives like

Concoction skills have 10% chance to not consume?
-reduction attack speed but add 45% concoction damage?
Concoction skill have 12% more Area of effect so they can overlap easier?

My Explosive Concoction Pathfinder is level 81 now. Here are my thoughts.

What is this skill designed for? Besides Pathfinder and big maybe Scion, it's impossible to keep Utility charges going against bosses or tough fights. I have to take Flask cluster jewel for Alchemist Genius and whole bunch of passives to keep Utility charges up and that's reducing my potential damage a lot. I can't see other classes using this skill as it's A LOT harder to keep Utility flask charges up than Life flasks Hence why 99% of Poison Concoction users are Pathfinders and they even have two great ascendancy for Poison damage. The Elemental ascendancy for Explosive Concoction is horrible as the skill itself doesn't do Physical damage so the 15% conversion of Physical damage means nothing. The new Master Alchemist's 20% Magic Flask effect on you also means little because it's very hard to use Ruby, Topaz and Sapphire flasks while blasting them.

What are the sacrifices of using Explosive Concoction?
1. You lose 3 sockets from weapon
2. You lose unique/rare mods from weapon
3. You lose 3 precious flask spots as you can't be using them while blasting them most of the time. One high end build even skip Ruby flask as the bonus to Ignite means little to a skill that relies on multiple projectiles shotguning. Ignite is based on base damage so having more multiple projectiles reduce base damage.


Explosive Concoction has VERY LOW ceiling! Why?
1. You lose out on Weapon mods
2. Because it's not an Unarmed or a Weapon, you can't use jewel or any passives that give you bonus based on Weapon Type. Most jewels have added damage to Weapon type or One hand or Single element. This skill has 3 elements!
3. As far as I know there are no Uniques that support this skill to make it more interesting. We need Unique Gloves that make this skill way more interesting and better.
4. You lose 3 sockets
5. How do you make this skill higher ceiling? It's designed to shotgun at closer range and yet Ruby's Ignite has little synergy. It is Tri-Element and yet it can't even proc Trinity support on its own. You can try to get more Elemental attack damage, Attack, Projectile, double damage and critical. All of those DO NOT improve Ignite. So my question is is Explosive Concoction a Fire skill at heart or it is Tri-element? The current design is Neither.


Explosive Concoction has design problems. Why?
1. Poison Concoction makes sense as Life flasks is so much easier to keep up and you can STACK poison so shotgunning is great to stack poison. Master Surgeon also gives Life so a Poison Concoction can still use other utility flasks well. Ruby only adds Ignite fire damage over time and yet it does not stack. Both Ice and Lightning damage base is low and so low that when I use Trinity support, it cannot even fill up the last bar as the Fire damage portion is always higher. For a skill that is Tri-Element, it really lacks synergy. It has little synergy with Veteran Bowyer as it has no Physical damage.

2. It really lacks AoE. Explosive Concoction is literally a Melee skill. Its blast radius is VERY SMALL to start. Enemies running towards you and you end up missing the blast or most of it. The best way to shotgun is to run up close.

3. The projectiles can't fly over many obstacles. For a skill that "Lobs", it cannot lob over many obstacles. It's weird. It's like the projectile has pathing problem. At least make it fly over most obstacles.


4. They introduced Alchemist Mark. It's neat and yet has little synergy with Explosive. Why? Burning Ground is based on the highest Ignite damage and what did I say about shotgunning and ignite? They have little synergy. The +1 flask charge is okay but not great. It won't persuade other classes to use this skill.

5. Ruby flask shouldn't give Ignite bonus as the skill is for shotgunning. Ruby should be more aoe, more critical damage or double damage chance. A good idea is for every Ruby, Topaz and Sapphire you consume, you get 15%, 30% and 45% aoe bonus.


The good? Explosive Concoction starts out very heavy hitting when you level up because the damage is from Gem level. You can one shot most minions to death with one hit. This is the only good part.
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Conclusion. Explosive Concoction has more design problem than the actual usage. Most classes can't keep up with utility flask usages and even Pathfinder has trouble without HEAVY investment. Even if you can keep up all charges during tough fight, you lose 2-3 flask spots, 3 sockets, weapon modifiers. The ceiling for this skill is VERY LOW.


I do like the Concoction idea. I think it's neat that we don't need to always go for attack speed or critical and I am using Flask cluster instead of the typical Projectile or Critical cluster jewels.

I just think Explosive C has weak design. It seriously needs bigger aoe, more damage and more synergy with Pathfinder. Sacrificing 2-3 flask spots just to keep charges up is a HUGE sacrifice. Explosive C has bad synergy with Veteran Bowyer and Master Alchemist. The 20% Magic utility effect on you is not great when you can barely keep the charges up during tough fights (where you need flasks the most!!)


I also hope Explosive Concoction can be more creative. How about Bismuth Flask that has tri element? Why not include it in the Explosive list so the player can decide which flasks to "mix it in". As a Master Alchemist, it will be more interesting to add more flasks into the mix to make a great bomb.