Physical Vs Elemental the never ending story
|
Gremlion asked for this:
Player 1: Lioneyes 200 damage per attack Broadstroke Total physical damage modifier 140% Player 2: Lioneyes 200 damage per attack Blackgleam Total elemental damage modifier 140% Lets disregard projectile damage and attack speed since they cancel out on both players. Player 1: Physical damage per attack 2*2,4 = 480 physical damage per attack Player 2: Physical damage per attack 100 (0.5*200 because of Blackgleam) Elemental damage per attack 100*2,4 = 240 Player 1 runs Hatred: 480*0.25= 120 added elemental damage Player 2 runs Wrath + Inner force: Elemental damage per attack 100 * 1,3 * 1,4 = 182 added elemental damage = 422 total Adding frenzy Player 1: 1,48 * 480 = 710 Hatred + full frenzy adds 176 lightning damage to this. Player 2: 1,48 * 100 = 148 Half of this inrease is converted to elemental via Blackgleam which then benefits from Elemental damage modifier= 78*1,4=109 Deals 78 physical damage and 422 + 109 = 531 elemental at full frenzy Using Lightning Arrow at full frenzy: Player 1: 710/2 = 365 physical damage 365 elemental damage Player 1 will deal 365+176 = 541 elemental damage & 365 physical damage Player 2: 78/2 = 39 physical damage 39 * 1,4 = 55 elemental damage Player 2 will deal 78 physical and 55 + 531 = 586 elemental Player 1 is using fire damage support gem: 710*0,3=213 extra elemental damage Player 1 deals 365 physical and 213+541 = 754 elemental damage Player 2 is using add lightning damage support gem: 50*1,4= adds 70 elemental damage Player 2 deals 78 physical and 586 + 70 = 656 elemental damage At this point adding "Weapon elemental damage" would be futile, since it would boost both players. Summary: Player 1 deals 287 more physical damage than Player 2 Player 1 deals 98 more elemental damage than Player 2 These operands in the beginning is what makes this a bad build: Player 1: Physical damage per attack 2*2,4 = 480 physical damage per attack Player 2: Physical damage per attack 100 (0.5*200 because of Blackgleam) Elemental damage per attack 100*2,4 = 240 You take one value and multiply it with 2.4 in the first case. You HALF that value before multipliers are added in the second case. Last edited by Celavie#2906 on Mar 19, 2013, 9:50:23 AM
|
|
|
One of the strongest mods on Lioneyes is the "Enemies cannot evade". You should take this in account, because it makes a huge difference...
with Resolute Technique --> you do not need DEX (for dmg issue) and % accuracy, you cannot crit without Resolute Technique --> you need DEX (for dmg issue) and % accuracy, you can crit with Lioneyes --> you do not need DEX (for dmg issue) and % accuracy, you can crit So depending on your passives I strongly guess that Lioneyes > pure ele bow, even with fouce on ele Ranger. One thing more not mentioned here: There is a support gem out there, called "weapon elemental damage" - it adds ele-dmg MULTIPLICATIVELY, and that by a HUGE amount... try to get something equal for pure physical... Last, but not least - Armour does NOT reduce every incoming damage by the same amount! The higher the phys. dmg you deal, the lesser (%) will be mitigated. So there is still hope for pure phys. builts :-P |
|
" Im not 100% centain of this; but "Weapon elemental damage" should contribute to elemental damage, added elemental damage and converted elemental damage. Therefor it would benefit both players and i removed it from the equation. Im sure about elemental and added elemental damage, unsure about converted. Last edited by Celavie#2906 on Mar 19, 2013, 10:38:58 AM
|
|
|
I think the problem with all your calculations is that you are not considering what stats you can have on gear and how they would interact with your damage. Flat ele dmg, flat phys dmg and %ele dmg. (for example on gloves/ring)
To do a proper calculation you'd have to count: aura's + flat ele dmg on gear + %inc ele dmg on gear + passive skilltree nodes (projectile/ele/weap ele/phys). Once you are properly geared+aura's, I think you will find proj dmg>ele>phys. If I look at the passive tree that you are using, I don't believe player 1 will ever outdps player 2. Edit: For example 20 flat ele dmg on gear is affected by % ele dmg and not by % phys dmg. Last edited by Icecreamcart#0654 on Mar 19, 2013, 10:44:13 AM
|
|
" Precentual increases > than flat increases, this is true. However there is items which gives percentual increase to physical damage: Ezemyon peak +20% The Magnate +25% Blackheart +5% Deshret's Vise +10% Broadstroke +30% This would add up to 95% increase from gear. However I would only use Magnate and Broadstroke late game, maybe Peak. That is still a 55%-75% percentual increase. I don´t know what a good %ele ring gives, but 20% seems like alot. That is +20% per ring and +20 for gloves = +60% elemental. Pretty equal to me Last edited by Celavie#2906 on Mar 19, 2013, 11:00:02 AM
|
|
" According to mods compendium, up to 36% WED from rings, amulet, belt, quiver for 180%. + some significant flat elemental damage on amulet and quiver with some lesser amount on rings and gloves that is multiplied by WED, unlike physical from the same sources. |
|
|
A HUGE portion of elemental damage comes from modifiers like +cold/fire/lightning dmg, and increased weapon elemental dmg.
A physical user can only get 1 increased physical dmg mod on each ring and amulet, but an elemental user can get 3 on each. Also, elemental dmg on gear tends ot be much higher than physical. Also auras like anger and wrath add even more dmg. Lastly, most elemental characters have the ability to shock stack, which skyrockets dps. |
|
|
Lionseye may not be the optimal bow for ele damage. You can get a tri-ele increased attack speed Thicket, combined with the flat ele damage auras and ele damage on gear. Ele damage + loads of attack speed + flat ele damage from auras + EWD is probably better than lionseye with converted.
|
|
" Yes, but you are still missing the point: Consider this: Scenario 1: Huge physical damage <becomes though conversion and addition> huge elemental damage Added physical damage percentual increases SCALES INTO more elemental damage. Added elemental damage percentual increase makes the elemental damage even higher. Scenario 2: Physical damage <becomes though conversion and addition> elemental damage. A flat amount of X-Y elemental damage is added. Added percentual elemental damage increase makes the elemental damage huge. In order to make scenario 2 more effective is to add ALOT of X-Y damage. Therefore - mathimatically - Base physical damage must be the best value to increase. In conclusion: Player 1 (with converted damage) would benefit from both +%physical and +%elemental Player 2 would benefit very little from +%physical. Last edited by Celavie#2906 on Mar 19, 2013, 11:26:32 AM
|
|
|
I'm new to the game, but I feel damages types weren't designed to be compared against each other strictly through how much damage they do.
Physical damage seems to be steady damage that scales really well with application speed. It's min/max range is moderately tight, and has the least number of ways of mitigating it. Lightning damage I consider a physical dps support. It has very large min/max ranges, and is affected the most by RNG which is not really valuable for steady dps. But because it's application speed appears to be the fastest and it applies shock, I find it good support for steady dps. Fire damage has both a tight range and higher max values than lightning. That means ignite will deal more consistent dot damage. Even though fire is slower to apply, I consider it to be ideally a steady form of kiting dps. Cold generally does the lowest damage of any elements in my experiences, and only certain skills can apply it quickly. But because it applies two types of crowd control status ailments and applies ailments more frequently, it feels more about CC than anything else. I think if elemental damage is always doing more direct damage than physical, then I think that needs to be balanced before released I think the game will suffer from such a marginalizing meta. |
|
