0.10.3c Patch Notes

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Phaeded wrote:

Spoiler

Dear GGG,

Please just stop fucking around trying to make loot work the way you think it should work. Please just give us options to either enjoy the "thrill" of having loot ninja'd away or to have full loot assignment with indefinite timers. Seriously...it's time to let the players choose how they want to play instead of forcing us to play "your way". Why is it so hard to just let us choose how we want loot to work in OUR parties? I realize that Chris thinks the excitement of seeing your name on a piece of loot for a second and a half might give someone a thrill but the disappointment at getting that loot snagged before you get there due to desync or dickheads or whatever far outweighs the thrill. Just give us CHOICES and stop forcing YOUR way on us. It's pretty obvious that about half the player base finds YOUR way to be less than ideal.

In fact...take the chance. Give players the choice and see how many parties are formed playing your way vs. the number that want to have loot assignment.

Peace out.

P.S. I still love you guys but this latest attempt to address the 900 page loot post is pretty sad. You keep saying POE is about making tough choices...well, time for you to make one and let us have some more freedom in game at the risk of finding out you were wrong about what's "fun".

I like how you said it was time to make a hard choice, then immediately followed that up with telling them what to do when that's conveniently exactly what you want them to do.

I also like how you said "OUR parties" when those parties are in THEIR game. A free one, I might add.

If they do that, I'll be in one of the parties with pure FFA enabled. And I'll be a nice guy and share with everyone. Because that's how I play the game.

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MercurialMaven wrote:

Spoiler

That's right! Teach those young whippersnappers that life is rough! If you want your loot, you gotta earn it the hard way!

You're making no sense at all. Either the system is instanced, in which case loot is divided roughly evenly and the division is enforced, or the loot is FFA, with timers or whatever , in which case the loot is yours if you get to it in time and not yours if you don't.

Where do you get entitlement or hand holding out of this? Quit the false stereotyping already!

I play games to have fun. Fighting over loot is not fun for me. Hence GGG loses my business and potentially a lot of other players, all because they are too stubborn to give us the option to configure the loot system in our games.

The name implies the loot the timer is on is already the player's who's name it is. That teaches entitlement. If all the "ninjas stole my loot" threads aren't good enough to prove it, nothing is.

Handholding comes into play when it comes to a group playing the game. If they are friends, how hard should it be to allocate loot themselves? Apparently, very, based on how many posts about it that have come up. Thus handholding by all the people asking that the loot be allocated for them rather than by them.

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TremorAcePV wrote:

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Snipers wrote:

Might I ask, why are you so against it? You've followed me throughout this issue, so, why are you so against putting the names back on loot?

Anything that will teach the masses entitlement is bad. So bad that just about anything that replaces it is a good improvement.

As for your concerns on my suggestion, better idea:

Only pick up what's good for your current build. Anything else, leave on the ground. If no one picks it up, FFA. Maps go to map opener (assuming you are in a map), otherwise, choose a leader and allocate it yourself along with currency.

That, and I just don't like hand holding.

This makes no sense on multiple levels. First off, say a quality lightning arrow drops for me. I don't use it b/c I'm a Maurauder. Since I don't use it, I leave it until my timer runs out. According to your idea, it should then be FFA, so I have every right to just grab the item that was mine already? Should I count to 5 before I pick it up while I'm also trying to play a game where things are actively trying to kill me to make it more sporting for my mates? Since no one else uses Lightning Arrow as a skill in my group, do we just leave it? What's the point of allowing an item to become FFA if I can just pick it up when I know no one would use it in my party? This is just one example that doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of why this change sucks for private co-op games. What happens if an item drops off screen for someone and we don't know who's it is etc etc. This single change completely makes co-oping less fun that it was before, for no reason. Once again, I'm not talking about public games, I'm talking about co-op private games, hence, I'm not sure why you're so adamant that the change should stay, since it seems like you don't play in co-op games.

If you are against entitlement, then you should be for a complete FFA system with zero timers and zero names. By putting someone's name on it, you are entitling them to "first crack" at the loot. It's that simple, and the mentality behind that will never change. Are you ok with the idea of full on FFA? Because I hope you play a melee or a really tanky AoEing RDPS, since I can guarantee you that if you're not within range of a drop as soon as it drops, it's going bye-bye with no timers/names. I personally don't have a huge problem with that in a public game either, especially since I'm melee and have a decent computer/graphics card that rarely de-syncs. For everyone else out there that's trying to play this game on an older machine, or with a less solid internet connection, good luck.

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MercurialMaven wrote:

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TremorAcePV wrote:

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Snipers wrote:

Might I ask, why are you so against it? You've followed me throughout this issue, so, why are you so against putting the names back on loot?

Anything that will teach the masses entitlement is bad. So bad that just about anything that replaces it is a good improvement.

As for your concerns on my suggestion, better idea:

Only pick up what's good for your current build. Anything else, leave on the ground. If no one picks it up, FFA. Maps go to map opener (assuming you are in a map), otherwise, choose a leader and allocate it yourself along with currency.

That, and I just don't like hand holding.

That's right! Teach those young whippersnappers that life is rough! If you want your loot, you gotta earn it the hard way!

You're making no sense at all. Either the system is instanced, in which case loot is divided roughly evenly and the division is enforced, or the loot is FFA, with timers or whatever , in which case the loot is yours if you get to it in time and not yours if you don't.

Where do you get entitlement or hand holding out of this? Quit the false stereotyping already!

I play games to have fun. Fighting over loot is not fun for me. Hence GGG loses my business and potentially a lot of other players, all because they are too stubborn to give us the option to configure the loot system in our games.

You people keep whining and bitching and trying to be "rational" about it etc. and are just annoying. Why should GGG cater annoying people?

They want it a specific way, deal with it. Whining/bitching/moaning/trying to be rational about changing it ain't going to change the fact that it is what they want it to be and that you are complaining/being annoying about what they want.

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Kerchunk wrote:

If you play with friends, just split loot at the end of the night, roughly evenly. Give people items if they need them. It's not hard.

Relying on RNG is not a very "friendly" system anyway.

There is no way to make loot "even" in most cases. Say we have 5 total people, and we have 1 Exalted Orb, 1 Quality Weapon Elemental Damage Gem, 1 Alchemy Orb, and 1 Chance Orb. How do we split those evenly? Should we just "Go down the party list"? That makes tons of sense, since my friend started the party he clearly deserves the Quality Gem, and since he invited me first since my name alphabetically is at the top of his friends list, I clearly deserve the Exalted Orb. Then the guy at the bottom of the party, who might have been afk for 3 seconds taking a piss, gets nothing b/c he took a piss when we created the party. Then we have to remember who got what for the future and try to balance that all out, which is super fun.

While RNG isn't perfect, there is much less to worry about from a book-keeping/balancing standpoint. It solves a -ton- of problems in a group dynamic. If your name is on it, then you get it, easy as that. Some days you might be flush, and other days you might be bare. But in the end you can know that you have the same chance of getting that Exalted Orb as someone else in the group.

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Snipers wrote:

Spoiler

This makes no sense on multiple levels. First off, say a quality lightning arrow drops for me. I don't use it b/c I'm a Maurauder. Since I don't use it, I leave it until my timer runs out. According to your idea, it should then be FFA, so I have every right to just grab the item that was mine already? Should I count to 5 before I pick it up while I'm also trying to play a game where things are actively trying to kill me to make it more sporting for my mates? Since no one else uses Lightning Arrow as a skill in my group, do we just leave it? What's the point of allowing an item to become FFA if I can just pick it up when I know no one would use it in my party? This is just one example that doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of why this change sucks for private co-op games. What happens if an item drops off screen for someone and we don't know who's it is etc etc. This single change completely makes co-oping less fun that it was before, for no reason. Once again, I'm not talking about public games, I'm talking about co-op private games, hence, I'm not sure why you're so adamant that the change should stay, since it seems like you don't play in co-op games.

If you are against entitlement, then you should be for a complete FFA system with zero timers and zero names. By putting someone's name on it, you are entitling them to "first crack" at the loot. It's that simple, and the mentality behind that will never change. Are you ok with the idea of full on FFA? Because I hope you play a melee or a really tanky AoEing RDPS, since I can guarantee you that if you're not within range of a drop as soon as it drops, it's going bye-bye with no timers/names. I personally don't have a huge problem with that in a public game either, especially since I'm melee and have a decent computer/graphics card that rarely de-syncs. For everyone else out there that's trying to play this game on an older machine, or with a less solid internet connection, good luck.

You apparently completely missed the "If someone doesn't pick it up..." right before the "FFA". That implies everyone has a chance to look at it. Once everyone has looked at it to see if it's for their build, and everyone basically goes "no", anyone can pick it up, and it's FFA because if two or more people want to pick it up, it's just up to whoever clicks first. This ensures no good loot gets left behind but people who need it get priority in a fair manner. If two or more people want something for their build, whoever needs it more gets it. I.E. whoever has the lowest DPS, HP, or whatever stat that is relevant to the item and will likely get a better boost.

I am indeed for a completely FFA system. I would prefer that over all systems. And I am fine with playing Melee, risk VS reward, after all.

Desync is a network issue. Not a GPU issue. *facepalm*

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TremorAcePV wrote:

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MercurialMaven wrote:

Spoiler

That's right! Teach those young whippersnappers that life is rough! If you want your loot, you gotta earn it the hard way!

You're making no sense at all. Either the system is instanced, in which case loot is divided roughly evenly and the division is enforced, or the loot is FFA, with timers or whatever , in which case the loot is yours if you get to it in time and not yours if you don't.

Where do you get entitlement or hand holding out of this? Quit the false stereotyping already!

I play games to have fun. Fighting over loot is not fun for me. Hence GGG loses my business and potentially a lot of other players, all because they are too stubborn to give us the option to configure the loot system in our games.

The name implies the loot the timer is on is already the player's who's name it is. That teaches entitlement. If all the "ninjas stole my loot" threads aren't good enough to prove it, nothing is.

Hey, so, I don't know if you heard or not, but they like, just released this patch that totally got rid of the visiblity of names and even the visibility of timer lengths. And honestly, for an FFA loot system I actually think it's a big improvement. And yet, we're still complaining!

The core issue has nothing to do with entitlement and everything to do with the fact that many people think FFA loot systems aren't fun, and, frankly, you can't argue with people's opinions, even if they don't always articulate them very well.

So, I'll repeat one more time. People aren't really complaining because they feel entitled to something that isn't theirs. They are complaining because FFA loot sucks!

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TremorAcePV wrote:

Handholding comes into play when it comes to a group playing the game. If they are friends, how hard should it be to allocate loot themselves? Apparently, very, based on how many posts about it that have come up. Thus handholding by all the people asking that the loot be allocated for them rather than by them.

Why don't I take it a step further and say that PoE holds your hand too much because it randomly generates numbers for you instead of making you roll dice like in table top. For that matter, it attempts to draw dozens of frames a second to help you visualize the game! You should totally have to imagine it in your head like the good 'ol DnD days.

Please don't confuse hand-holding with convenience; computers are all about convenience.

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MercurialMaven wrote:

Spoiler

Hey, so, I don't know if you heard or not, but they like, just released this patch that totally got rid of the visiblity of names and even the visibility of timer lengths. And honestly, for an FFA loot system I actually think it's a big improvement. And yet, we're still complaining!

The core issue has nothing to do with entitlement and everything to do with the fact that many people think FFA loot systems aren't fun, and, frankly, you can't argue with people's opinions, even if they don't always articulate them very well.

So, I'll repeat one more time. People aren't really complaining because they feel entitled to something that isn't theirs. They are complaining because FFA loot sucks!

That's the thing. If they had never added timers with names in the beginning, I completely doubt anyone would be complaining besides the random scrub. Many people think the FFA loot system isn't fun because they see things they believe are theirs "stolen", as they would say.

So technically, you are wrong and you are right. People are complaining because they feel entitled to something that isn't theirs but you are right because that is the very reason they say FFA loot sucks.

If that's not the reason, then why does FFA loot suck? Ignoring timers, of course.

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TremorAcePV wrote:

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Snipers wrote:

Spoiler

This makes no sense on multiple levels. First off, say a quality lightning arrow drops for me. I don't use it b/c I'm a Maurauder. Since I don't use it, I leave it until my timer runs out. According to your idea, it should then be FFA, so I have every right to just grab the item that was mine already? Should I count to 5 before I pick it up while I'm also trying to play a game where things are actively trying to kill me to make it more sporting for my mates? Since no one else uses Lightning Arrow as a skill in my group, do we just leave it? What's the point of allowing an item to become FFA if I can just pick it up when I know no one would use it in my party? This is just one example that doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of why this change sucks for private co-op games. What happens if an item drops off screen for someone and we don't know who's it is etc etc. This single change completely makes co-oping less fun that it was before, for no reason. Once again, I'm not talking about public games, I'm talking about co-op private games, hence, I'm not sure why you're so adamant that the change should stay, since it seems like you don't play in co-op games.

If you are against entitlement, then you should be for a complete FFA system with zero timers and zero names. By putting someone's name on it, you are entitling them to "first crack" at the loot. It's that simple, and the mentality behind that will never change. Are you ok with the idea of full on FFA? Because I hope you play a melee or a really tanky AoEing RDPS, since I can guarantee you that if you're not within range of a drop as soon as it drops, it's going bye-bye with no timers/names. I personally don't have a huge problem with that in a public game either, especially since I'm melee and have a decent computer/graphics card that rarely de-syncs. For everyone else out there that's trying to play this game on an older machine, or with a less solid internet connection, good luck.

You apparently completely missed the "If someone doesn't pick it up..." right before the "FFA". That implies everyone has a chance to look at it. Once everyone has looked at it to see if it's for their build, and everyone basically goes "no", anyone can pick it up, and it's FFA because if two or more people want to pick it up, it's just up to whoever clicks first. This ensures no good loot gets left behind but people who need it get priority in a fair manner. If two or more people want something for their build, whoever needs it more gets it. I.E. whoever has the lowest DPS, HP, or whatever stat that is relevant to the item and will likely get a better boost.

I am indeed for a completely FFA system. I would prefer that over all systems. And I am fine with playing Melee, risk VS reward, after all.

Desync is a network issue. Not a GPU issue. *facepalm*

So, once again, my question for you is why are you the one who should decide how I play the game with my friends? I have said multiple times I don't mind FFA in a public party. I even go so far as to not join Pubs with "Ninja=Kick" type title threads. But when I play with my friends, why can't I have names? Why does this bother you so? It will have 100% zero affect on you.

That's the part about this debate I can't wrap my head around. I don't want to ruin your fun, why are you trying to ruin mine?

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TremorAcePV wrote:

If that's not the reason, then why does FFA loot suck? Ignoring timers, of course.

I'm pleasantly surprised you asked. It suggests that you recognize this is in fact opinion-based and centered on the loot system, not entitlement.

It's not fun to me because:

1. It interplays poorly with desync and lag, imbalance due to differences in connection quality, body blocking (both from monsters and players), melee vs ranged, tanky vs high dps, the game's poor pathing and other related bugs, and so on.

2. It encourages uncooperative play in what should be a cooperative experience. Look at Kripp'ss latest video for all his ideas on how to troll in public games.

3. I can't rely on gentleman's rules in a public game, because you're playing with anonymous people that suffer no consequences for breaking your agreement.

4. I would rather focus 100% of my attention on killing challenging mobs than have to context switch to grabbing loot as fast as I can when one or more monsters die. I don't think GGG should have to rely on FFA loot to keep the game fast paced and tense. The mobs themselves should be providing the challenge.

5. I don't like the ground being cluttered with a million whites. Instanced loot would solve this very easily.

That's what I came up with off the top of my head. When it comes down to it, though, it's just a matter of fun. Giving us the choice of loot system would allow you to have fun your way and me to have fun my way. I don't understand how anyone comes out a loser in that scenario.

Currently I am lvl 87 and run only high lvl maps with a very tight group of players. After running maps for 12 hours last night ( all of these being 74-77 ) we have all come to a unanimous conclusion on the patch. Its shit and is not even a fix to what GGG wanted to accomplish. So my goal in this post is to criticize what I believe is wrong with it and what would be a better solution.

What I like about the patch.

I love how blues are no longer name drops. It clears the screen of tons of crap that doesnt need to be there and most of which is never even picked up.

What I despise about the patch

Everything.

If any one in their right mind in High lvl maps would know that running a single target or last hitter with IR/IQ is required on boss and majority of rare kills. Doing so with even the smallest amount of IR and IQ still caused the majority of the items to be off screen. Was this not what GGG was trying to fix? Because of this I and my group can no longer determine no more than 1-2 rares of whos who and the rest are up for grabs. In a map group all this causes are arguments and drama which reduces exp progression. It would be one thing if this patch fixed my screen covered in a Shit fest of gear but it doesnt. Even when not running IQ or IR. So now my group has to deal with losing gear(which already quite often happened) and still dealing with fuck fest of loot on the group while killing champion mobs.
In conclusion with this patch the amount of drops has been reduced by only a small fraction and also creates more disrespect and chaos within high level map groups.

In regards to GGG having a pvp loot based system I love the idea but there should be a way to give the respect to those that you play with. I see no way how any one single person could progess to 77 maps without a group let a lone keep progressing with groups with this type of loot system. Yes I accept some loot is going to be taken but there needs to be a way to give respect to those that are due it in your party.

The Fix.

Include names on all named loot WHEN HIGHLIGHTED
When highlighting over an item the stats appear in the bottom right corner. Under the name the item should have the name of who the item is dropping for under the item name or above it. This way the clutter of the name and timer are no longer on the items drop area.

Have a combat log of who picks up a specific item.
GGG I know you want a pvp based loot and I commend you. Its great at low lvls but having that kind of bullshit at higher lvls is ridiculous. All I ask is you have a combat log of when a name loot item is picked up. At least this way those that are ninjaing can dealt with based on the how the party wants to be played. I want the decision to play how I want to play in my party. If you give the option to provide so many builds and ways of playing characters then I dont see this as a problem.

Keep magic items in the same non name loot as whites.
This helped out so much on seeing the screen but at the same time there are still too many items that drop to where it does not benefit much on high drop rate maps.

No more hover text on drops.
Yes I want to be able to see all the drops but at the same time I dont want to see hovering text from 3 screens away and have to double tap z to resync the drops with the map.

Changes I am against.
I am not for party leader being able to change type of loot to masterloot, greed gob, and etc. This is not an mmo.

This feedback is only based on end game gameplay. I think the patch is interesting for low and mid game but complete nonsense for end game content. For those that read this thank you for reading and feel free to post your feedback and call me a pussy. Thanks.