Auras
" Thanks for taking the time to add some input and for adding an even better counter argument than I thought of. ;) You do raise the issue of "intuitiveness". Indeed, the practice is something a new player may not immediately attempt... To this I counter with: So what? Auras still work correctly when slotted in your gear, which is what new players will do. None of this matters to new characters/players at all, it's only at higher levels when you have the mana/skills/gear needed to pull off something like this... and even then you pay a high cost to maintain multiple auras, in addition to all the preparation involved. I argue that what one person calls unintuitive, another would call additional subtleties of gameplay -- which would require a deeper understanding game mechanics in order to master. The experienced player should be rewarded for their deeper understanding mechanics and time invested. Why is this situation any different? Why not reward players who put more time into the game, and/or those willing to do the research? Why NOT let us use weaponswap for something other than keeping our aura skills slotted... Or is GGG planning on changing that, too? [I, and many others, would really like clarification on that] " Thankfully, we have 8. ;) " I argue that it would actually limit choice, because an optimal build is STILL going to pull off XYZ auras -- except it will all be on weapon swap. " If you built your character to have the mana pool and the mana regen to pull that off, why shouldn't you able to do it? Or are you saying that's it too easy to build a character that can maintain 5 auras while being able to spam multiple active skills non-stop? The only difference it would really make is how many tactical options you had while in combat. Why wouldn't you have fun with more options? I argue that there will be a summoner build that with XYZ gear is the best -- meaning most "imba". Why shouldn't it potentially be a multiple-aura build, which is most useful in parties AND still makes use of weaponswap for something OTHER than an aura-stick? The whole point of the endgame in ARPGs is to build a godlike character. Removing paths to achieving this kind of power only serves to place limits on the number of builds that are considered successful in the end. " Zombie/Spectre summoning fit your definition of having an effective duration of "-1". And these skills do nothing to promote anything except for solo play. In response to Mark's questions: I would answer "No" to all of them, while you answer No to all of them except for auras. Why the double standard for auras, when they are most useful in parties and promote group-play? The condition for auras is actually just the reservation of mana. As Mark so expertly pointed out: there's not a single skill gem in the game that's required to be slotted in order to maintain their effects. Anyways... Thanks for the comments, and I'd like to keep this discussion going if possible. :D Last edited by Daemonjax#0396 on Aug 13, 2012, 3:38:44 AM
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"I am very confident you're wrong about that being how you'd program an aura, were you actually give the task of making them work in the game engine :) It would make auras unplayable if the character was actually constantly recasting them. It might be how you'd set out intending to program them, but this is an idea which sounds nice in words but really isn't actually sensible mechanically. But I do think you've probably got something in your idea of the aura being "maintained". I think the reason a lot of people intuit this interaction with auras the way you do is because they see the aura as thematically, if not mechanically) taking some constant effort to maintain -(supported by the constant use of some of your mana, in the form of reservation), and once that assumption is made, it makes sense to think that said constant effort requires the gem which allows you to cast the aura in the first place. In D&D (4E, because that's what I'm most familiar with) terms, it would be like an action that takes a standard action to use, but only a minor to sustain - you have to actively stop and cast the aura initially, but maintaining it takes less effort, so you're still able to run around and attack while doing so, but are still putting in some effort. Technically, there's nothing to stop us from saying that mana reservation skills should have that thematic aspect, and to fit with it should require the gem to be constantly equipped. (Although that would take time and work to implement, should we do so). But currently this hasn't happened, and I personally hadn't made such an assumption about the thematic workings of auras, so now I feel I have more of an idea why people intuit things this way. Thank you. My suspicion is that we will change auras to work the way most people intuit them - I believe it's already been planned to happen, but no works be done yet on working out how to do it, let alone implementing it. While my intuitions were fine with auras persisting after you lose the gem, I would have no problem with that changing, because I know it's more intuitive that way to many (probably most) people, and I can see that there's a clear way of looking at the skill that fits with that functionality. I personally hope we don't change any of the skills that don't use mana reservation to remove their effects when the gem is removed - it's been suggested for minions (I believe primarily for balance reasons, and I was amazed anyone would try to make that happen because it seemed so completely against how the skill felt (at least to me) like it should work. But I'm still interested to see how other people's intuitions lead them to view the situations I outlined. | |
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One of the things I worry (maybe unfounded) about with the existing system for auras is if it is optimal to keep spell gems in your inventory, switch your auras in, cast them, and then switch active skills in after the fact.
If that sort of play is overused, then it's a bit annoying as you have to go and switch gems around and cast auras when you enter a zone and then switch them back. To make auras fade when the gems are unavailable would prevent that kind of annoying busywork, but it would change functionality. To say, allow you to cast auras from gems in your inventory would similarly remove the busywork without changing functionality. In principle, I don't mind the current system, given the expectation that it's not more than a inconvenience for periods of time when you're short on gem slots. However, if the prominent means of playing is to use gems to cast auras and then swap them out, then I think better means of client support for that is probably warranted. Maybe even just right clicking on a gem in the inventory to cast it's aura might be worthwhile. A pretty easy means of working around it already exists however, in the weapon swap macro. Weapon swapped items even get experience while manually swapped auras don't even. |
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" I don't know if I'd go as far as to call it annoying, but it does consume a fair amount of time... mostly due to deciding what to do with the gems after the auras are cast. Testing all of this out on my dual-claw Shadow, I came up with the following (which would be considered optimal play): I have an extra 4L pair of boots in my inventory at all times, with the following gems in them: 1) Reduced Mana Cost 2) Wrath 3) Anger 4) Grace Upon entering a new map, I swap those boots in, cast my auras, then swap my original boots back in. Now, since I have more gems in my inventory than I can equip, I have to decide which gems I want to level. Those would go into my weapon swap. Here's where it gets interesting: If I choose not to level any of those gems at this time, then I can use my weapon swap for something else entirely. I've been experimenting with a unique bow I found... another option would be dual wands with power siphon... if I ever found an awesome 2h, I'd give that a whirl with Flicker Strike or some other skill I haven't even thought of yet! PROS: Doing this allows me to have 1 more active aura than I would be able to have otherwise (Grace -- at least with my current gear), while potentially allowing me to have more fun with my weaponswap equipment slots... It's more fun to use weaponswap for different active skills, rather than just an aura-stick... definitely more difficult to play that way, but potentially more rewarding. Note: I don't think I'd ever be able to have more than 3 auras active with this build, no matter what I do... Unless I go 4 points completely out of my way and take Eldritch Battery (then I could have Discipline and Clarity as well -- which wouldn't help me personally at all, but my party members would be grateful). However, I do know I'd be able to run these same 3 auras simply by using a 4L 2h weapon (or 5 auras using a 6L) in my weaponswap. CONS: I lose inventory space, and I spend time deciding what I want to do with my gems after the fact. More gems to keep leveled up, so my average gem level will be lower than it would be otherwise. It's a trade-off that not every player will want to make -- especially when doing endgame maps! Many will just use weaponswap as an aura-stick (assuming GGG allows us to continue doing even that). But, why limit the available choices for those who are willing to go the extra mile? Last edited by Daemonjax#0396 on Aug 14, 2012, 1:32:40 PM
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Just posting my stance and feelings (intuition if you will) on it, without having read further in the thread:
" You should only lose the aura if you remove the gem from your equipment. The gem slotted in your equipment is the means how you cast it and mantain it. The skill bar itself is an UI element and itself not part of the game lore/existence/whatever you call it. I see a difference between UI elements that allow me to control the game and the game "reality" itself. In the game, my character can do things depending on its available skill gems. The UI (here the skill bar) is only the way how I interact with it, but it shouldn't influence the abilities of my character. " You get those summons via a one time expenditure of mana and you don't need the gem anymore to control them (it's a summon gem, not a summon and control gem). So they should stay. " Nope. " They should also stay, you summoned them into existence but one doesn't need anything to keep them for there duration. " Same here, once created, they stay (for their duration). " Since this time you summon (and I'd also say control) that minion through your gem, while you also need to pay upkeep (in form of mana reservation) it should vanish as soon as you remove the gem. " They should remain cursed. Removing the gem removes my ability to curse further enemies, but once cursed, their fate is sealed (for the duration of the curse and with Hex Master for all eternity). " The difference in my opinion is that you maintain the aura (shown through the reserved mana), while you don't need to maintain a permanent curse. And, for me, the way to maintaining the aura involves the means in which you cast it in the first place, ie. the skill gem itself. So, without the gem you lose the ability to maintain it. " The fireball got created and you don't interact with it any longer as soon as it leaved your fingertips (or any other body part with which you cast your spells...). So it stays in existence even if you remove the skill gem. " No, Molten Shell is a buff you create once for a one time cost. After that you don't interact with it directly, so it should just run its course even with the gem removed. " Nope again, one doesn't maintain the charges, they just stay in effect as long as their duration allows. If, on the other hand, you would remove a passive skill point that gives you an additionel charge (from 3 to 4 for example) and you'd have your maximum amount, you'd lose one charge (going from 4 to 3 charges) even before they'd run out naturally. " It should stay, since you afflicted the enemy with a debuff that doesn't depend on any further action of the debuffer. Ie. the debuff also stays when the debuffer is dead for example. " Again, you created something for a one time cost, so the effect should work even if you lose the ability to do so. It works after all even when you're dead. " Interesting question. I'd say yes, you'd also immediatly lose the ability to do the skill and thus cancel the attack. After all you need to do the whole attack for it to have effect and if you lose knowledge on how to do the later part (imagine here a complex spell where you forgot the last, final incantation and thus your spell won't work) it can't work. |
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Little update:
Just got a PM back from Rory (GGG) regarding this aura behavior... here's his response: We haven't decided how we'll deal with this - We may consider it acceptable, as players that use weapon swapping regularly won't be able to socket their auras in their weapons if we do it another way. So, there you go... The fact that it works in weapon swap is the same reason it works when unslotted. "Fixing" this would also "fix" being able to continue using your auras after swapping back to your main set. Also, it would probably affect every skill listed by Mark (GGG) previously in this thread in the same manner. While I'm sure they could code a way to make some skill gems behave differently from others, you have to wonder if it's worth the additional effort when one can argue that the results would be questionable. Last edited by Daemonjax#0396 on Aug 14, 2012, 8:05:48 PM
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I think your problem is you called them "Auras" in the first place.
The way you have them set up they act much more like blessing or curse spells. I think of aura gems as giving your character the power to draw from their mana to provide a constant effect. I know we dont need them here but tldr Mana reserved is a maintenance cost. The gem gives the ability to pay that cost. No gem, no ability to pay cost. No cost paid = no effects. Without that Gem providing that ability to choose to reserve your power to maintain an aura you should lose the aura. You no longer have the gem which gave you that ability. " No. Since you are not required to give something up in order to keep the minions alive they are self sustaining. The same goes for your other questions about fireball and whatnot. I cant stop a rock flying through the air by cutting off the arm that threw it. No maintenance cost (reserved mana) means that the spell has it's own energy which will expire as intended. " Mana reserved is a maintenance cost. The gem gives the ability to pay that cost. No cost paid = minion dies. " No Because the curse has no maintenance cost. Again, if you make this mechanic work intuitively then you open up a whole new dimension of maintenance cost spell type possibilities. " the reserved mana, the maintenance cost, is the difference here. If you make a curse with a reserved mana/life requirement it should work just like an aura should. The way they are now they are spells with their own energy. " this would be a rare situational exploit. You could prevent this with a trivial delay to accessing newly socketed gems or newly swapped equipment while not in town. A 2 second delay to allow a new item or gem to activate and let it's magical energies flow into your character would be a trivial delay and would stop this sort of abuse without significant harm to equipping newly found items and continuing to play the game immediately. Swapping weapons also should not be instant. Lets face it. It takes a few seconds to swap weapons in real life. It should take time in the game as well. Length of time should depend on weapon size and maybe number of pieces. "Act as if what you do makes a difference. It does." - William James
"People are just about as happy as they make up their minds to be." - Abraham Lincoln |
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I always felt is exactly how Havoc described it. I don't even use this aura exploit because I always thought it was a flaw that was going to be fixed very soon.
I was really surprised when I read Mark's responses. Why would a game designer want such a weird unintuitive mechanic in his own game? ad 8) I think it is safe to say this is not going to become an issue if removing the gem would stop you from landing the hit and nobody would cry over it. And even if they did, does it seem ok to you that under temporal chains you are able to rearrange your gear while performing an attack? I don't think so. Edit: Sorry if I sound too harsh, it takes time to absorb this! ✠ ✠ Last edited by wiggin#5896 on Aug 15, 2012, 1:51:38 AM
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"I haven't stated I want it in the game, all I've done is point out that different people have different ideas about what truly is "intuitive" in this situation. Intuition is not objective. The most intuitive understanding to me is that auras aren't different from other skills - removing the gem removes your ability to cast them, but nothing more. I've already stated I'm aware some people intuit things differently, and that I'm fine with the aura behaviour changing, but the "mana reservation = constant upkeep" idea is not how everyone intuits the situation, and I posted those questions both find out how people's intuitions apply to similar situations and to get people to think more about them. I think the responses so far have been quite enlightening. | |
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My apologies, I might have used some of my selective reading skills when going through this thread *scratches head*. At least I was clear on how I feel about it...
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