Charged Dash

Thanks for the new thread, Jess.

Anyway, I feel I was a bit rude in the earlier thread, so I apologise to Exiledtyrant for frankly being a dick.

Here's my take on the revamped skill, having played it as a main damage skill through level 81 Assassin in Incursion.

Cool redesign! It is way too much fun now that you can actually pilot your mirage. Grants good mobility while you deal damage, leading to some fun tactical decisions where you have to choose between a) painting lots of AoE on the ground for more coverage or b) painting a path forward or c) painting a path to a safe retreat. Also, while channeling, choosing between releasing-now to get out of a sticky situation, or continuing to channel for those big deeps.

Without further ado, let's look at some release numbers.

EDIT: This post, as originally posted, had wrong numbers in it, because I am an idiot and totally forgot about the waves only dealing damage every other pulse (Feedback: I think it should say this in the gem description, just like Cyclone should say it hits twice per spin.)

---edited analysis---
While continuously channeling, you'll get 250% of 160% of 50% of base damage, because a) 150% more damage if mirage has stopped, b) 60% more attack speed, and c) deal damage every other pulse. That puts us at 92.1 * 2.5 * 1.6 * .5 = 184.2% of weapon DPS at level 20, which as a later poster has said is in line with Sunder. Compare:

Heavy Strike 193.7% of base damage as DPS
Ice Crash 208% of base damage as DPS
Blade Flurry IDEAL channeling - about 330% of base damage as DPS
Cyclone 56.4*2*1.5 = 169.2% of base damage as DPS

However, if you do a "zap around" strategy, you'll get 75% of 160% of base damage on the final burst, and 160% of 50% of base damage for the waves while you travel, for ((.75*1.6) + (.5*1.6))*92.1 = (1.25*1.6)*92.1 = 184.2% of weapon DPS for that strategy as well. Nicely done, Mark... looks like you made both options completely equal in damage! Clever, clever.
---end edited analysis---
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The most inconvenient thing is how it's based on movespeed, which means Vaal Rain of Arrows and Bear Trap can give you a hard time. Not sure how best to counter that either as a player or a game developer. Anyone else have insights there? Now that I've edited my post and see how big the damage ratio is, though, I'd personally be fine having this hard counter in place. Makes it not the best possible skill of all worlds.

How is the damage for the final wave calculated? Is it just 0.75*(number of stages) more damage, and is it just for hits or also for ailments?

Alright so, heres the scoop.

I'm playing an elementalist dual wielding hyaons fury with pathing that takes me from the assasins points, through ranger, through dualist and finally landing in marauder big damage set up but a pretty strong one for most melee builds.

This is my first league where I played a character that was devoted to charged dash, so I have no experience with how it was prior to this. But I will say theres some pretty janky stuff going on with this skill that makes other skills a better choice for what this skill tries to do....which is sad.

First off the bat, the amount of skill required to operate this skill is high skill cap 100%. Theres nothing in the game I've played so far that requires the amount of thinking and timing this skill does. And for that the reward for using it should be a lot higher. On top of this with minimal mana investment or none at all you can fully maintain this skill for as long as you want which is great for a channel.

You're locked in place the entire time which creates a ton of risk vs ranged mobs, like cyclone maybe add in a bit of stun resistance? While sure you can run stun immunity via chayulas and other ascendencies, but it just feels wonky to get smacked randomly out of it....a lot...like, a lot a lot. I took heart of oak and finesse and I still get popped a good bit.

For the risk of the skill it'd be nice if the AOE surrounding the character was a bit wider?
Also having the skill tied to your move speed feels bad. If your ghost speed, and amount of stacks went up in comparison to your attack speed it would feel better. But it feels like crap having to watch things like quicksilver flasks and avoid using them because it cuts down on my damage. With skills like blade flurry that exists it makes channels like this feel bad when they underperform and have these issues in anyway. Why bother with this skill when I could bladeflurry for more damage without all the risks and half locking myself out of quicksilver flasks and boots with mobility. Sure the skill can be used to make up for those things since the ghost moves at 130% your speed, but the fact that more movespeed on your character makes the ghost travel faster means you're losing out if you decide to reduce movespeed on your character. So you're screwed out of damage if you add move speed and you're screwed out of mobility if you drop move speed....it feels bad.

Needs some tweaks imo, more attack speed=more stacks and faster ghost. If I had to ditch everything else in this paragraph in exchange for this one idea that would be it.

Oh and one more thing about the control. Can we get a camera "option" like a toggle or something to have the camera follow the ghost?

"

AndromedaDelux wrote:

it feels like crap having to watch things like quicksilver flasks and avoid using them because it cuts down on my damage. ... So you're screwed out of damage if you add move speed

Where in the world are people getting this idea???? Are you guys reading build guides for pre-3.3 Charged Dash or something? If anything, more movespeed increases your sustained DPS because you reach the end of your path faster and are therefore allowed to benefit from 150% more damage sooner. EDIT 2: Now I realise you're probably talking about clear speed, where you would in fact want to release channeling. However, unless you're relying on higher Damage per Hit for other mechanics, your DPS stays exactly the same with change in movespeed if you are consistently using the skill. 6 stacks applied over a 4 second channel deals the same DPS as 3 stacks applied over 2 different 2 second channels (going forward and then back), barring things like on-hit effects and Shock. It just feels more impactful to release with low movespeed, because you've been channeling for a longer period of time, which actually lowers down your DPS (by exactly the same ratio that having the increased stacks raises your DPS, hence why I said stays exactly the same).

In case you missed it in my post above - sustained channel when mirage has stopped moving grants 250% of skill damage, which is less than the 175% of skill damage you get by releasing the channel whenever the mirage stops. Taking the skill description at face value, sustained channeling for Charged Dash actually has a higher damage ratio than even Blade Flurry perfect play if you presume mirage has stopped in its path. The only "weakness" other than having to wait/position for the mirage to stop is the 50% physical to lightning conversion.

EDIT:

Here's the real scoop. Barring any odd Unique interactions (Abberath's Hooves?) or silly secret hidden damage ratios - the best way to maximise your on-paper DPS with this skill is to path to the nearest obstacle and never, ever release your channeling. If you are releasing in an attempt to maximise on-paper DPS - you are doing it wrong. Releasing can help your true DPS by granting mobility, usually resulting in survival where you would otherwise die, and maximise your true DPS that way - but it does NOT maximise your on-paper DPS!

Still playing my first Incursion Char as a charged Dash Raider currently level 89.

Skill feels awesome, but i really wish it would get the same treatment as Flicker and Cyclone when concerning Haku spirit, having to backtrack to my spirit because i had to clear the path ahead just doesn't feel right.

Also when is a stage created if i just charge straight ahead i get to 5 stages. If i wiggle my mouse while charging i get to 7 sometimes 8. Earlier in the game with less movement speed i got up to 12 stages sometimes.

"

adghar wrote:

"

AndromedaDelux wrote:

it feels like crap having to watch things like quicksilver flasks and avoid using them because it cuts down on my damage. ... So you're screwed out of damage if you add move speed

Where in the world are people getting this idea???? Are you guys reading build guides for pre-3.3 Charged Dash or something? If anything, more movespeed increases your sustained DPS because you reach the end of your path faster and are therefore allowed to benefit from 150% more damage sooner. EDIT 2: Now I realise you're probably talking about clear speed, where you would in fact want to release channeling. However, unless you're relying on higher Damage per Hit for other mechanics, your DPS stays exactly the same with change in movespeed if you are consistently using the skill. 6 stacks applied over a 4 second channel deals the same DPS as 3 stacks applied over 2 different 2 second channels (going forward and then back), barring things like on-hit effects and Shock. It just feels more impactful to release with low movespeed, because you've been channeling for a longer period of time, which actually lowers down your DPS (by exactly the same ratio that having the increased stacks raises your DPS, hence why I said stays exactly the same).

In case you missed it in my post above - sustained channel when mirage has stopped moving grants 250% of skill damage, which is less than the 175% of skill damage you get by releasing the channel whenever the mirage stops. Taking the skill description at face value, sustained channeling for Charged Dash actually has a higher damage ratio than even Blade Flurry perfect play if you presume mirage has stopped in its path. The only "weakness" other than having to wait/position for the mirage to stop is the 50% physical to lightning conversion.

EDIT:

Here's the real scoop. Barring any odd Unique interactions (Abberath's Hooves?) or silly secret hidden damage ratios - the best way to maximise your on-paper DPS with this skill is to path to the nearest obstacle and never, ever release your channeling. If you are releasing in an attempt to maximise on-paper DPS - you are doing it wrong. Releasing can help your true DPS by granting mobility, usually resulting in survival where you would otherwise die, and maximise your true DPS that way - but it does NOT maximise your on-paper DPS!

So, in regards to feeling like you are losing out on damage. If the skill works as it says on the tooltip you do lose damage if you go faster movement speed. Every time you get an attack in during the channeling before reaching the endpoint you get a "stage" which grants the final burst you do an additional 75% more damage. If you get to the endpoint immediately without getting many stages the amount of damage bonus you get from those stages is reduced.

Movement speed reduces your damage. Simple as that and I don't think it's a good thing. Either remove the benefit of getting additional stages or make a very nice change to it where movement speed would also increase the rate at which stages are gained(kind of like a more multiplier to attack speed) so even if you do get 150% inc movement speed so the skill feels nice to travel with you don't hit like a wet noodle because you don't get any stages.

"

erohakase wrote:

So, in regards to feeling like you are losing out on damage. If the skill works as it says on the tooltip you do lose damage if you go faster movement speed. Every time you get an attack in during the channeling before reaching the endpoint you get a "stage" which grants the final burst you do an additional 75% more damage. If you get to the endpoint immediately without getting many stages the amount of damage bonus you get from those stages is reduced.

The final wave of damage does do less damage if you have fewer stages when you get there, but adghar's point is that you no longer need to release the dash to deal damage, and that sustaining the channel once you've maxed it out actually increases your DPS.

So i've tried to make a build and i think skill needs more tuning.

First, it need movements speed to be more damage efficient, but with more move speed it's very hard to control. It's become very hard to make precise guiding of the spirit needed for bosses.

Second, fact that stacking stops if spirit hits obstacle sucks very very much, especially in this league. Many architects stay in a small rooms around walls and it's very hard to guide spirit around them to deal full stack final damage. It shouldn't really stop stacking when hitting obstacle.

Third, it's teleporting is inconsistent. If spirit disappear in a place where character can't stay, you don't teleport and it's fine. But, iguess, when it's targeting enemy and spirit disappear where character can't stay, character would be teleported right to the enemy. I'm talking about fights like Kitava and Arakali. This is skill is awful at them. You shouldn't teleport when you guide spirit towards their pits.

Fourth, stuns sucks very much. More than any other channeling skill. With other channeling skill you at least stay in place, but with CD you teleport semi randomly in the middle of spirit travel which kills your perception of what's going on.


And last, looks like final stage blow hits only enemies in front of the spirit. Again, it's sucks for bosses, especially very fast ones which you just wouldn't be able to normally hit. I guess it should deal 360 degree damage with, maybe, smaller AOE size.


I guess there wouldn't be much players with skill, it's too hard to control, scale and be efficient.

"

erohakase wrote:

So, in regards to feeling like you are losing out on damage. If the skill works as it says on the tooltip you do lose damage if you go faster movement speed. Every time you get an attack in during the channeling before reaching the endpoint you get a "stage" which grants the final burst you do an additional 75% more damage. If you get to the endpoint immediately without getting many stages the amount of damage bonus you get from those stages is reduced.

Movement speed reduces your damage. Simple as that and I don't think it's a good thing. Either remove the benefit of getting additional stages or make a very nice change to it where movement speed would also increase the rate at which stages are gained(kind of like a more multiplier to attack speed) so even if you do get 150% inc movement speed so the skill feels nice to travel with you don't hit like a wet noodle because you don't get any stages.

Movement speed reduces your damage per hit. It does not reduce your damage per second unless you are very bad at right clicking immediately after releasing.

I'd be open to your suggestion of damage per second actually increasing with movement speed, although I'm a little nervous the damage ratios would get high enough that the devs would look at nerfing the skill overall in the future.

Otherwise, I like that you can build one skill different ways. If you, for some reason, really want one large hit, then you go for lower movement speed, like classic 99% reduced movespeed Cyclone. Otherwise, if you want the exact same DPS with higher movement speed, you have a "flurry of blows" style - multiple hits that deal less damage each, and the same final DPS.

To put some dummy numbers out there - higher movement speed currently replaces your 1x 400% damage hit with 4x 100% damage hits. This is mostly a matter of feel, as it's unlikely you'll rely on Charged Dash lower-dps-option-tactic for 1 large Shock effect or 1 large Stun. I think this option of feels is fully appropriate for the game.

EDIT: I've put the second half of my original post contents in spoilers because I was dumb and forgot about the "Every other pulse" mechanic, which currently doesn't look like is in the gem description unless I also lack reading comprehension. What I originally said was wrong... oops!