[3.7] Ahfack's Crimson Cyclone | Shaper FULL Life Kill Vid | 100% Pure Phys | All Content | PoBs

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Ahfack wrote:

Reposting from last page so it doesn't get looked over:

Hey guys! Mobile today, so can't contribute too much, only what I see at face value.

If you want to use a Starforge, then use a Starforge and keep it moving. This has already been discussed in the thread many times and is in the FAQ.

As far as calculating everything in PoB: Not exactly accurate with this build. There will always be theory results and actual applied results.

Also, the Ruthless bleed stacks from our totem isn't mentioned at all. In fact, looking at the character sheet on my phone that was used for calculating dmg, you don't even use AW Totem at all! You are no longer comparing Disfavour/Starforge on THIS build, but your build. My build doesn't only use cyclone on bosses, but a combination of Cyclone and AW. AW totem is extremely useful for bosses, and is discussed multiple times; in the thread and in the video. Our cyclone bleed stacks are not what matter as much on shaper, but our Totem's Ruthless bleed stacks.

If we have 100% chance to bleed with our cyclone, then our totem has 75%, due to no chance to bleed support gem. Every 3 hits is a ruthless hit, with a 75% chance to build a ruthless bleed stack in conjunction with crimson dance. With Starforge, the chance for a ruthless hit to build a bleed stack is lower. You can calculate this in PoB all you want, but this part has many variables and will never reflect real world application.

Also, shaper isn't the only content in the game. The real-world 100% uptime of FREE onslaught we gain from our axe nodes is very nice during mapping, and if your clear speed is optimal, you often have onslaught up when you are fighting a boss as well.

As stated in the guide, this was made in standard. Axe is 2.5ex, Starforge is 3ex in standard - Check for yourself. There are a lot more axes floating around on standard than starforges, thus making them cheaper overall. In league, more people farm shaper because many would consider him easier than Uber Atziri. Isn't it funny we measure dick size in this game on PoB in shaper DPS when he's not even the hardest boss in game? hahaha :)

In conclusion:

Starforge is a great sword, and plenty of other builds showcase that. If you'd like to use a starforge, use a starforge - However I prefer Disfavour. Consider me an axe man I guess :). I made this build specifically with a disfavour in mind.

You're making a conjectured claim with no supporting evidence. Mercurially stating that there's too many variable to gage real world performance is comical. Do not pretend that the math isn't easy to do with ruthless AW included - but since you seem to believe that AW (whose damage is based principally off of your weapon's damage, and we've already established that Starforge does more damage) will make the difference, we'll run the numbers for it as well and include them.

Again, Shaper is being used, not because of relative difficulty, but because it is one of the only fights in the game where bleed DPS has a chance to even make a difference, if we ignore this fact, then Starforge is just outright better with no math necessary.



TL;DR: Unsurprisingly, Starforge is better. More's the point - you'll get more reliable damage out of AW if you use Bloodlust instead of Ruthless, regardless of which weapon you choose or your % chance to bleed by virtue of not having to wait for bleed to stack each time you drop a totem.

The inescapable truth is that Starforge is a 724 DPS weapon and Disfavour is a 613 DPS weapon. This 18% damage gap is only roughly abridged by the +2 to supports on Disfavour (effectively making it a ~660-670 DPS weapon, depending on the supports used bringing the gap to ~10% in favor of Starforge), and at the attacks speeds achieved on this build the 25% extra bleed chance on Disfavour is effectively a non-player for affecting downrange DPS, both for Cyclone and for ruthless AW. Also Starforge has 100 flat life on it. ONE HUNDRED FLAT LIFE. The only reasonable argument for Disfavour is that with 100% chance to bleed, you can use Haemophilia's to ensure that all corpses explode, making this slightly more HC friendly. I'd still take 100 flat life.

And since you seem to be hung up on "real world application," the truth is that for 99.9% of content, bleed doesn't matter at all. Stuff is dying so quickly to this much physical damage that figuring partial percentages of damage on the merits of bleed DPS is actually ridiculous. The build is also moving so quickly that you'll have onslaught from the moment you kill your first rare monster for the rest of the map - the onslaught node in the axe wheel is not providing any measurable real world benefit to that end either.

In conclusion:

Starforge is better. Starforge does more DPS. Starforge has life on it. The price of both a 6L Starforge and a 6L Disfavour at the 90th percentile DPS on standard is identical. The price of a 6L Starforge is significantly less in league. The only reason to use a Disfavour instead is "I like axes/I like the lore of Disfavour." Which is fine - but don't tell people that Disfavour is better: It is not. Starforge is better.

Hey,

I'm playing this build in Abyss atm and got a question about the amulet choice.
There are currently no +1 curse Daresso's on trade, but there are +1 curse Carnage hearts.
So, the question is: do i go for a regular Daresso or a +1 curse Carnage heart? :)

Thx in advance ;)

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jhayeehl wrote:

I'm considering using a 6L (belly or bronn's?) for AW instead of Kaom's Heart. I really like having Immortal call for those random near death experiences. If I did, about how much life difference would there be and what gems would be good to link with AW as a 6L?

I was using a 6L Belly of the beast with 37% life, switching to Koam's I gained 800 life, and thats only being lvl 92 with the next few points going to the 5% life cluster.

The gems i used were, AW + Melee Physical + Ruthless + Bloodlust + added fire + Conc Effect




@scorpion7010 I'd say get either a 6L starforge or Disfavour with those 23ex.

Hey ahfack, currently following your build in AHC, and i have a question. Why do u recommend going for Headsman before Brutal fevour? Since the changes to reflect it should not matter as much going for it first, i want to become stun and bleed immune as quick as possible, + getting faster lifeleech rate to become more tanky.

Another question, when should i go for crimson dance? i want to go for it asap since i have all the leech potential except for weapon, to help damage on bosses.

Hi and thx for editing my -not so nice looking- post and for the answers.
What i forget to say is... this Video you have done is so nice!! Really like it. Here and the long one on Youtube, sure i "liked" it.

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I think the Mainpoint i had is the Tree, not the decition between sword and axe. Like many Posters and me said Sword is extremely cheaper and Disvafour still is the better Weapon if you can/want affort it. But what i really wanted to talk is the Tree and i want to ask about it again.

Some information, how i plan a tree is, to look what Keystones i need/want and then save as many Points as able. Some not so nice Path ALWAYS is to connect Duelist with the Marauder Area.That means:

There are some Points SET i would say... this is:
1. Scion Lifewheel (most Stateffective Life getting Area) - SET
2. One of the Weapondmg Wheels in the left Marauder Area (here it is Axe, maybe Swordwheel) - SET
3. Crimson Dance - SET
4. Warriors Blood - SET

That means you have THREE Ways to "connect" the Areas.

1. Like your, Ahfacks Way = going from Master of the Arena to Scion Lifewheel
That means 6 Points

2. You could: going from Master of the Arena to Warriors Blood
That means 5 Points

3. My Way: going from Crimson Dance to the Sword/Axewheels on the bottom of the Skilltree; Looks long but it isnt, its 3 Points to Sword or 4 Points to Axe.
That means 4 Points (Axe) and only 3 Points (Sword)
Thats a Pointsaving Way of great 3 or 2 Points.

Conclusion: 6 to Scionwheel vs. 3 to Swordwheel or 4 to Axewheel

Ok sound nice but we need to have a look what we get or miss on this Ways.

o Way 2.:
to Warriors Blood easiely Suxxs (nothing useful to get there on the Way)

o 1. Your Way:
- 1 Jewelslot what is a great thing
- 18% Attackspeed (im not sure how important Attackspeed is for Cyclone) i think the Damageincrease is huge
for 10 Points including Waypathing...

BUT on the other Hand:

o 3. My Way for the same Points:
- Way 3 or 4 Points depending on Weaponwheel
- 10% Life
- 20% Flasklife (not very important)
- 24% Armor from Juggernaut
- 23% Life from Bloodless + Area
- Mobs cant leech life from you (not as important but its for free...)
for 9 Points Sword / 10 Points Axe

So my Question is, is the Juwelsocket+Attackspeed better than this huge Amount of Defensive stats? Im a very poor Player so i cant buy 4 stat Juwels and stuff. Tree 1 in any Way does more damage and the Juwel give 7% Life. Its still 33% Life vs. 7% Life.

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Mainquestion is above, just here some Question about Sword/Axe...Wheel

Again the Sword discussion should not start here but the Swordwheel is not to bad i think because it is 2 Points shorter, has same Bleedchance Sword 25% to Axe 25%. More Attackspeed. No Onslaught... what is not as importent i think. The Onslauht from Slayer will trigger most times in MAPS and both dont do anything in Bossfights. So Axe has some more Physdmg and 2 Points more to spend, Sword has 2 Points less to spend, lower Physdmg, more Attackspeed. And Sword has this nice +1 Weaponrange what is huge. Maybe its my budget thinking... dont have this +2 Range Amulette and stuff so far.

-> Maybe Disfavour would be a lot better of not going an Phys only Build? Starforge has the mega synergy with the Brutality Gems + Dealing no Elemental dmg from Starforge. Would be interesing what Damage stats resolve when using Disfavour+Hatred+WeD vs. Starforge+Brutality.

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One more Question. You wrote in the Guide you use Iron Reflexes when using Bloodrage. I feel BR is easy enough to sustain without IR because the regeneration (im only L66) is high enough to not doing anything to my lifepool. Is IronR worth taking? Im not sure i should really use IR and the Way to Vitaliy Void... the manaleech on the Way to Vitaly Void is nice i think so its easier to get suitable Equipment but on the other Hand IR and Void is 6 Points... Is this really worth taking?

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How good is Tireless? the Way reduced the Cost, is this neccasery? For Life isnt Devotion in direction to Templar better? for 3 more Points you could get in this area 2x int + Jewelsocket. Thats something i think about too. Devotion so far is not so nice in this build because we use curse auras so we would just get the 18% more life for (thats bad) really lost of 5 Skillpoints and for 3 more we could get 20int and a Jewelsocket. Not so very efficint. (i use warlords + Blasphemy at the moment like on all Chars to level and the mamasustain is easy so far. i will switch to vuln+blasphemy later, than i will see if mana is a problem).
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More and i think important Questions!!

Movementspeed / Kaomsboots / Belly

I played some Whirlwind Barbs in Diablo2 and their you hit more often the lower run speed you have. Sure that makes sense because you stay in "hitting Range" longer. That should be in POE the same Way isnt it. I couldnt find any Information about, how often and how and why the Spinning of Cyclone hits.
Dont get me Wrong ... i love high Movementspeed a lot. But maybe in optimizig damage lower movementspeed should be better, right? Mainly at Bossfights where you have to do very short Spins. I think about Kaoms-Boots in here. We would still have the 20% Movement from Devotos. Getting WStance, no Stun, huge Life, no sockets, no Movementspeed. Because i must use Belly the non Sockets is OKish. What do you think about that? Traveling longer distances is anyways done by jumping around with leap slam.
Would Use than: Helm 4link CWDT-Setup // OR // vuln-blasph., Gloves Leapslam, BM, FA, Edc.oMStun, Totem in Armor with X links (5/6Links in Chest) and blasph. + vuln = still 4 links for Totem.

So how good or bad is Runspeed?

In my Setup Kaoms-Boots should be very good in synergie with belly of the beast. Belly just gives the nice Lifeboost by having some Flatlife... 40% of 0 = 0... and Devotos has 0, Carnage Heart i use = 0, and Heamoph. = low life, so Belly doesnt do the best Job. By getting Kaomsboots + 100+Life belt Belly should do something, other Ways, not.

How good or bad are Kaoms-Boots? This interacts with the Question of Movementspeed

Maybe i should skip Belly, what do you think. Calculation Rarestuff vs. Unique Stuff:

-- Unique Stuff 100 life helm, boots, belt, gloves, 2x70 rings, 70 Amulet = 610 Life from Items, Belly 40% = gives 244 Life from Belly - 100 you miss vs. an rare 6Linkarmor.
= 144 more Life Belly

-- Belly with Rarestuff: 100 from Rare boots, 2x70 from Rings, 50 from Haemophil.gloves, 30 from Decieverbelt others is unique Stuff without Life = around 330 Life from items, 40% Belly = 132. - 100 from missing when using a rare Armor = 32 more from Belly.

-- Example Calc. mix out of Rare and Unique Stuff (something im going to play): 150 from Kaoms Boots, 0 from Devotos, 0 from Carnage/Daressos, 120 from Belt, 50 from Hemophil.gloves, 2x70 rings = 410 Life, 40% Belly = 164 Life from Belly - 100 that a rare Armour would bring = 64 more Life from Belly. What is usefull. With Starfoge 100 Flat Life looks much better. = 104 more Life than a Rare 6Link Armor.

How useful ist Belly? Ist a usefull rolled 6 Link Armor better and comes with a very low Price instead

Kaoms Boots + Belly looks like a very good Combo. Here saidly again Starforge looks better with Belly than Axe because of the Flat 100 Life ting, with Belly its 140 and with Tree its about 240 Life from SF.

Sure Kaoms-Armor is and will ever be the best Chest (and Classic One far better) you can get, but not reachable fast for me (i would get 6Link Weapon, than Amulette and than maybe retch first). So Belly or another Chest must suites better to the Budgetplayers like me.
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Thx a lot and have fun all.

Im looking forward for the discussion here.

AND btw. sorry for my bad english.

Hi, thanks for the build.

I notice that flat phys from ring or jewel gives very little dps, probably because disfavour dont have % phys but lots of flat phys.

is that correct?

What about the % increased Melee Damage on Elder rings? they give alot more dps than flat phys.

Thanks

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edwinschi wrote:

Hi, thanks for the build.

I notice that flat phys from ring or jewel gives very little dps, probably because disfavour dont have % phys but lots of flat phys.

is that correct?

What about the % increased Melee Damage on Elder rings? they give alot more dps than flat phys.

Thanks

Your argument is correct if you don´t cause bleeding. You can find the mechanics of bleeding damage caculation in the wiki.

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edwinschi wrote:

Hi, thanks for the build.

I notice that flat phys from ring or jewel gives very little dps, probably because disfavour dont have % phys but lots of flat phys.

is that correct?

What about the % increased Melee Damage on Elder rings? they give alot more dps than flat phys.

Thanks

melee% dmg on rings is great, but it's a suffix. What you gonna give up? int? res?

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Lordoftheringmuscle wrote:

Hey ahfack, currently following your build in AHC, and i have a question. Why do u recommend going for Headsman before Brutal fevour? Since the changes to reflect it should not matter as much going for it first, i want to become stun and bleed immune as quick as possible, + getting faster lifeleech rate to become more tanky.

Another question, when should i go for crimson dance? i want to go for it asap since i have all the leech potential except for weapon, to help damage on bosses.

If you're going HC, sure adjust to your liking.

Crimson dance should be acquired whenever you feel like you need more boss dmg. Also be sure to be using your AW totem during bosses as that's a huge bonus with ruthless bleed stacks. I used to use bloodlust when we could use ruthless in our cyclone, and sometimes PoB even shows bloodlust doing more consistent damage. But I've tested this in game on bosses, and the bleed damage from ruthless stacks are quite noticeable.

Also if you're going HC, you might path around the bottom side of tree to get to RT and take the fortify nodes. I would personally also use fortify as 6th link.

Also, remember we are 100% stun immune while cycloning. That is an innate feature of cyclone.