Lightning Strike
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PB should work with the projectiles from lightning strike.
Ground slam I'd classify as ranged, but not projectile. Zaanus:
Global chat: Mechanics for A work one way, B for another, C for a third but also with A, B uses C but not A, and D uses A&B but not C ___ Isn't a "no" better than an ignore? |
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"It does, since 0.9.12 which changed how projectiles work. "Ground slam is not ranged. Ranged attacks are those made with Ranged weapons. | |
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What weapon is ranged, but not projectile?
Zaanus:
Global chat: Mechanics for A work one way, B for another, C for a third but also with A, B uses C but not A, and D uses A&B but not C ___ Isn't a "no" better than an ignore? |
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"Bows and Wands, technically. They fire projectiles, but 'projectile' is not a property of the weapon. There are ranged weapons (bows, wands) and melee weapons (everything else). Ranged attacks are made with ranged weapons, and usually, but not always, involve projectiles. Melee attacks are made with melee weapons or unarmed, and are usually do not involve projectiles. Projectiles deal projectile damage, and by definition, any damage that is projectile damage is not melee damage - the fact of being projectile damage overrides it coming ultimately from a melee weapon. "No. Even if the projectiles dealt both melee and projectile damage, there's still only one bonus, you can't get it twice. The projectiles deal projectile damage - this is not melee damage and does not benefit from the increased melee damage bonus from strength. Iron Grip changes the strength bonus to apply to projectile damage as well as melee - this is expanding the list of things that bonus applies to, not making a separate bonus that could stack. With Iron Grip, the bonus from strength will apply to the projectiles. Last edited by Mark_GGG#0000 on Nov 29, 2012, 10:14:53 PM
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So the projectiles from Lightning strike don't actually deal 70% of your melee damage, but 70% of the damage you would deal with 0 Strength and without any other specific bonuses, and then apply all projectile bonuses?
Aka, having high strength will boost the melee attack, but not the lightning? If so, will melee damage bonuses also only boost the melee? If I have the choice of picking 20% projectile damage or 20% melee damage, what will be preferable? Zaanus: Global chat: Mechanics for A work one way, B for another, C for a third but also with A, B uses C but not A, and D uses A&B but not C ___ Isn't a "no" better than an ignore? Last edited by UnDeaD_CyBorG#7056 on Dec 4, 2012, 8:20:30 PM
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"So you're saying the melee and projectile portions of the attack are treated as one when calculating damage? I was under the impression that the projectile damage was 70% of the melee damage, and would then be modified by projectile damage modifiers, which Iron Grip is. From what you're saying, it's like projectile damage calculations "remember" that the strength damage modifier was applied, and so when Iron Grip goes to be applied to those projectiles it sees the strength mod already in the stack and therefore does nothing. Just wanna make sure I understand. The skill does feel overpowered to me when used by templars with stacked elemental damage mods, after watching Kripp use it on his stream. |
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"No? I'm not sure what you mean by this, but I can't connect it to what I've said in any way that makes sense. "It's not, and never has been. "No, it's nothing like that. Your weapon has base damage. When calculating damage for the initial hit of lighting strike, that base damage is increased by melee modifiers, because it's a melee hit. That includes the bonus from strength. It's also increased by all other relevant modifiers (lighnting, elemental, with [insert weapon type], etc. When calculating damage for the projectiles of lighting strike, that base damage is increased by projectile modifiers, and NOT by melee modifiers, because it's a projectile. That includes the bonus from strength if you have iron grip. It's also increased by all other relevant modifiers (lighnting, elemental, with [insert weapon type], etc. There is no "remembering" because the projectile damage is not somehow made out of a previous damage calculation done for melee with a bunch of modifiers that shouldn't apply to projectile damage. Projectile damage cannot be based on melee damage because we can't then apply the projectile damage modifiers - to do so to already-calculated damage would make the additive stacking modifiers into multiplicative ones. Last edited by Mark_GGG#0000 on Dec 9, 2012, 7:22:26 PM
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That makes a lot more sense now.
So, basically, melee damage mods will not apply, but melee weapon mods will? Zaanus:
Global chat: Mechanics for A work one way, B for another, C for a third but also with A, B uses C but not A, and D uses A&B but not C ___ Isn't a "no" better than an ignore? |
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"I'm assuming you're talking about modifiers like "6% increased physical damage with one-handed melee weapons". In such cases, the wording is technically talking about a property of the weapon, not the damage. This is as opposed to "10% increased melee damage". If you're wondering why I chose those ones specifically, it's because those are the first two I found in the templar area when I checked the passive tree. If, for example, you use lightning strike with a one-handed sword, and the projectiles hit something, then "increased melee damage" will not apply, because this is projectile damage, not melee. However, that damage is from a sword, and a sword is a melee weapon, so "increased physical damage with one-handed melee weapons" will apply (and likewise so will "increased damage with swords", etc). I am not entirely happy with this current situation due to it being potentially confusing, but given how the bonuses are worded, it it the correct behaviour such that both are applied as they say they are. | |
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Thank you Mark for taking time to clarify this. All crystal clear now.
The reason you couldn't make sense of my question is because it was based on my assumption that weapon damage and melee damage were one and the same. Hence the idea that the projectile was 70% of the full melee hit. Thanks again, and Happy Holidays to you and the whole team! :) |
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