Question about Iron Reflexes

For clarification, if I have 10 evasion, +20% evasion, 30 armour, +40% armour, would I get ( 10 * 1.2 ) + ( 30 * 1.4 ) or perhaps ( 10 + 30 ) * ( 1 + 0.2 + 0.4 )?

Oh, I already had this conversation with Mark. Allow me to post something that might help clarify this:

100 Armor, 100 Evasion, +200% evasion. This means 100 armor + (100 x 3 evasion--->armor) = 400 final armor.

100 Armor, 100 Evasion, +100% armor, +100% evasion. This means 100 x 2 armor + (100 x 3 evasion--->armor) = 500 final armor.

100 Armor, 100 Evasion, +200% armor evasion. This means 100 x 3 armor + (100 x 3 evasion--->armor) = 600 final armor.

Meanwhile, with pure evasion gear, it doesn't seem to matter how your percentage % armor/evasion passives are distributed:

200 Evasion, +200% armor. This means 200 evasion x 3 evasion--->armor = 600 final armor.

200 Evasion, +100% armor, +100% evasion. This means 200 evasion x 3 evasion--->armor = 600 final armor.

200 Evasion, +200% evasion. This means 200 evasion x 3 evasion--->armor = 600 final armor.



In short, if you are stacking a mix of armor/evasion pieces, you want pure +% armor passives for max benefit of Iron Reflexes. If you are stacking pure evasion pieces, you can use any proportion of +% armor/evasion you want to achieve the max benefit.

+% Evasion does NOT apply to natural armor, but it does apply to evasion-converted-into-armor. +% armor and +% evasion are essentially added up into a single +% boost to any evasion-converted-into-armor.

So it's like I said, except it's not multiplicative. +% armor is applied twice, it's still doesn't make much sense. I don't see how people could think it should work like this intuitively. Actually, they just want more armor...



Imo, there are two logical way to do this :

1) +% before conversion :

100 armor, 100 evasion, +200% evasion
= 100 armor + 3* 100 evasion
conversion => 400 armor


100 armor, 100 evasion, +100% evasion, +100% armor
= 2*100 armor + 2*100 evasion
conversion => 400 armor


100 armor, 100 evasion, +200% armor
= 3*100 armor + 100 evasion
conversion => 400 armor


200 evasion, +200% armor
= 200 evasion
conversion => 200 armor


200 evasion, +100% evasion, +100% armor
= 2* 200 evasion
conversion => 400 armor


200 evasion, +200% evasion
= 3*200 evasion
conversion => 600 armor


2) +% after conversion :


100 armor, 100 evasion, +200% evasion
conversion => 200 armor
= 200 armor


100 armor, 100 evasion, +100% evasion, +100% armor
conversion => 200 armor
= 2*200 armor = 400 armor


100 armor, 100 evasion, +200% armor
conversion => 200 armor
= 3*200 armor = 600 armor


200 evasion, +200% armor
conversion => 200 armor
= 3*200 armor = 600 armor


200 evasion, +100% evasion, +100% armor
conversion => 200 armor
= 2* 200 armor = 400 armor


200 evasion, +200% evasion
conversion => 200 armor
= 200 armor


I don't know how it was working before, but it was probably one of these two solutions. Because they are much more simpler and intuitive.

edit : after re-reading Mark's post, I understand a bit more. But I wouldn't say it's more intuitive, it's just more convenient and forgiving, and I don't know if I like that, basically Iron reflexe hasn't any drawback anymore. I see the link with damage conversion though, but I don't think it was a good solution for converting damage either.

So what about eldritch battery ? And other incoming attribute converting spells/passives ? It might become more and more complicated for you over time if there are chained conversions, whereas the simpler and more intuitive solution would stay simple for ever.

Applying the +x% bonuses before conversion is the only logical way in my opinion. If you apply the +x% bonuses after then it defeats the whole purpose of stacking evasion to get more armor with Iron Reflexes as you completely lose all %Evasion benefits. As you, zril, pointed out: +200% evasion of 0 evasion is still 0. That is the exact opposite of what we want with Iron Reflexes.

The logical thing to do is apply the bonuses before conversion. If you have 0 armor to start with, then +x%Armor will not help you nor should it.

If GGG, finds it necessary to keep the 'convenient and forgiving' formula as zril said, then at least make it so that Evasion converted by Iron Reflexes only receives half benefit from +x%Armor bonuses.

"

FaceLicker wrote:

Applying the +x% bonuses before conversion is the only logical way in my opinion. If you apply the +x% bonuses after then it defeats the whole purpose of stacking evasion to get more armor with Iron Reflexes as you completely lose all %Evasion benefits. As you, zril, pointed out: +200% evasion of 0 evasion is still 0. That is the exact opposite of what we want with Iron Reflexes.

The logical thing to do is apply the bonuses before conversion. If you have 0 armor to start with, then +x%Armor will not help you nor should it.

If GGG, finds it necessary to keep the 'convenient and forgiving' formula as zril said, then at least make it so that Evasion converted by Iron Reflexes only receives half benefit from +x%Armor bonuses.

You aren't reading, with the skill the equation for defence goes as follows

(Armor + Evasion) x (armor mult + evasion mult)

So It basically makes a new type of defence called ARMORVASION. and all armor and evasion counts as that. In the same way it naturally does, just changes both armor and evasion to amorvasion then when you get hit that number acts like armor.

EDIT: PS: I really should start reading the dates on things before I accidentally necro them.

Forgive me if I hijack the thread a little bit, but this is a related question.

One reason to take evasion gear over armor gear is that you don't see a loss in movement speed. With Iron Reflexes converting that evasion to armor, do you take the armor penalty to movespeed from the converted evasion, or does the armor penalty purely come from equipment?

The penalty comes soley from equipment, armor and shields. Pure STR armor producing the largest penalty.

"

Flytheelephant wrote:

EDIT: PS: I really should start reading the dates on things before I accidentally necro them.

Yeah.. you're about 3 months too late. I think we've all come to accept how Iron Reflexes works now, lol.

"

FaceLicker wrote:

Yeah.. you're about 3 months too late. I think we've all come to accept how Iron Reflexes works now, lol.

Hah, didn't even notice this was a necro thread. My bad as well.

I actually have to necro this thread again to ask how passives which increase both values, like leather and steel are handled. If I understand the formula correctly Leather and steel would increase my ARMORVASION 48%?
Or would the evasion part only be applicable to gear with actual evasion on it?