[2.4] zSavage's Poison Hurricane (Crit Poison BV)[Budget Friendly][Assassin]

Independent on Crit or non Crit build: 10% dmg is 10% dmg ...
There is nothing to argue about.

I don't know how it is for your guys, but I can't kill all higher map bosses in under 1s (or even 4s)

Here is a spread sheet comparing the damage gain by poison.
No guarantee that all assumptions are correct:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/153O0NGxdpddeKY64DqBwUtP6XCjIHEZlFksvxkAfUiA/edit?usp=sharing

lol what the fuck is that?

that is one of the most ridiculous charts i've ever seen. you're lacking a severe amount of information there.

you need to understand something, 10% is not 10%. thats right. poison is based off 10% of your physical and chaos damage. however this does not mean it automatically gives you 20% more damage per second, each second, for a number of seconds, per stack.

you see its all in relation to your physical and chaos damage as a ratio to your damage out put. if you ONLY did physical and chaos damage, sure its a straight upgrade of 20% dps. but for almost all builds and cases, this is not the case. if physical is only 50% of your damage output, 10% of it towards poison damage is only a 5% increase. see what im getting at?

your chart says the first second is better than hatred and added fire, but is this true in practice?
in order to be more accurate, im going to use my own builds numbers. this is debating which is the best 6th link.

WITH POISON
dps: 26,130.82
cps: 4.61
phys: 473-706
cold: 566-851
fire:
light: 166-248
chaos: 499-745

WITH ADDED FIRE
dps: 31,425.77
cps: 4.61
phys: 473-706
cold: 566-851
fire: 288-429
light: 166-248
chaos: 557-832

WITH PHYS TO LIGHTNING
dps: 31,505.62
cps: 4.61
phys: 157-234
cold: 577-868
fire:
light: 704-1049
chaos: 618-922

there are the numbers. do your own calculations if you want. keep in mind this is absolutely the best case scenario for poison. though i don't have the poison nodes by acrobatics, i am using a ming's and atziri flask plus shadow nodes for as much phys and chaos as i can basically get.
****KEEP IN MIND. I am a ranger and specifically build ranger for Pathfinder. once patch hits i will almost certainly socket added chaos damage as my 6th link since im running my flasks at 100% uptime and with Pathfinder that means i will automatically poison mobs. this will be a straight up boost in my DPS regardless of my links, but this info is to debate the poison gem.

so with my current tree and if i had poison socketed i would end up with 211% inc damage to the poison DoT. since my poison will last over 5 seconds, i'll give it the biggest benefit of the doubt and say the fight will last 5 seconds.

with the poison gem the average damage per hit per blade is 5,668 and physical/chaos is about 57% of the damage combined, making my average poison damage based off approx 3230 damage (323 damage). not entirely sure how the inc poison is calculated, so i'll just add it. 323+211% = 1004 damage per stack per second. at 50 stacks (again best case scenario) this is going to give me an added damage total over 5 seconds of 251,000. this is on top of the normal damage from BV with 50 blades for 5 seconds.
2,834,000 + 251,000 = total of 3,085,000.
the way i calculated the damage based off a % of the average damage INCLUDES criticals and crit damage. if you did the calculations right from the listed damage of each element, it would not factor in criticals, thus the difference would be even more.

with phys to lightning my damage over 5 seconds totals 3,417,095. added fire its 3,408,434.


if you come up with different numbers, let me know. but the way i see it the poison support gem absolutely sucks ass for BV UNLESS YOU ONLY DO PHYSICAL AND CHAOS DAMAGE. poison doesn't, by the actual support i'd rather replace with a straight up damage support gem such as those listed.

even if i dropped a bunch of passives to pick up the poison nodes, the best total DPS with poison socketed would be around 3.2 million as opposed to the 3.4 from anything else.


EDIT:
oh snap i did make a mistake. i only calculated it at 50 stacks per second where as its really 100 stacks per second (BV hits twice per second). so essentially DOUBLE that calculation for poison, and yet its still low at 3.33 million.
i thought that looked a little funny at first, because every time i've calculated poison vs other support gems it always comes to almost equal DPS, so its just whatever floats your boat. if you add in the poison nodes you'll have slightly higher damage, but again thats ONLY after 5 seconds. you're also most likely sacrificing some DPS nodes to even get to the poison passives, so you'd have to calculate that loss in the mix as well

Just relax a bit.

We are talking about the effect of poison for blade vortex.
And we want to have the simplest way of looking at it that is possible.

Pretty sure we can agree that Blade Vortex base damage is poison.
So all conversion / added elemental skills/gems work the same way with it,
as all of them convert physical to an element (I ignore chaos-> poison for simplicity).

Only looking at the damage increase the gem provides, I don't care about blade stacks, crit or non crit, cast speed, ramp up time of BV, as the number simply states the damage increase factor by using added poison for BV over the duration of an encounter.
Which is in my opinion greatly underrated.

Let me emphasis this again:
I'm comparing the relative dmg increase per support gem not the total DPS increase.
So don't call it ridiculous if you're not capable of grasping the context ;)

Cheers

i understand what you're trying to do, but the problem is what you're trying to do doesn't work in reality. thus it gives a real false impression that poison is straight up the best support gem you could possibly socket and ever think to use for any blade vortex build, when that is simply not true.

poison is actually one of the least effective support gems for blade vortex, only becoming slightly more viable (but still less effective overall) as time passes by towards the max amount of poison stacks in relation to its duration. in this case thats 5 seconds.

If it doesn't work in "reality" please explain how my numbers are incorrect.
Otherwise I have to agree with zSavage that poison is an incredible strong support gem,
for all encounters longer than 1-2 seconds.
As we melt any trash anyways increasing the "short term" damage has no benefits.


To your calculations:
Basing things on tooltip DPS is in general a bad idea - so lets go with average damage per hit, so we don't have to take cast speed / crit / crit multi into account. Scaling is based on base damage anyway so we don't have to care about these factors.

Poison avg dmg:
1377.5 = (473+706)/2.0 + (566+851)/2.0 + (166+248)/2 + (499-754)/2.0
phys + chaos = (473+706)/2.0 + (499-754)/2.0 = 1211.5

Assuming your scaling factor of 211% increased poison damage:
total_poison_damage_per_second = 0.1 * (1 +(2.11)) =0.311

So each hit over the duration of you poison will add 0.311 percent of your chaos + physical damage
(Remark: Added Fire / Hated only scale of Physical)
until the poison duration is reached.

Hit0: applies poison (don't know if there is already poison damage)
Hit1: 1211.5*0.311 = 375.8 poison dmg
Hit2: (1211.5*0.311) * 2
HitN: (1211.5*0.311) * n # until duration is reached and nr poison stacks saturate



Added fire avg dmg:
1736.0 = (473+706)/2.0 + (566+851)/2.0 +(166+248)/2 + (499-754)/2.0 + (288+429)/2.0
added fire dmg = (288+429)/2.0 = 358 fire dmg

No stacking effect for the next hits ...


From my point of view:
- poison adds a lot more damage than added fire
- while it has no effect for very short encounters
- which might not matter as we one shot trash mobs anyway
- scaling is independent of crit / non crit
- scaling is independent of initial hit size

I'm happy to be proven wrong with solid numbers ;)

Lets compare level 20 added fire and lvl 20 poison, assuming poison duration of 5s and no nodes to enhance poison from the skill tree.
Let's assume a blade vortex average physical damage of 100, and only one stack, for simplicity.

The damage calculation for added fire (assuming no ignites) is straight forward. (100+44) * 10 hits = 1440 total damage. (over a 5 second fight). The total DPS is 288.

The calculation for poison is a little more complex. Let's assume the first hit occurs at t=0 and every subsequent hit is 0.5 s later. The chaos damage per second is going to be 22% of the base, which is 22 per second.

Our total number of hits is still the same, at (100*10) = 1000 damage.
The added damage from poison is (22*5 + 22*4.5 + 22*4 + 22*3.5 + 22*3 + 22*2.5 + 22*2 + 22*1.5 + 22*1 + 22*0.5) = 27.5*22 = 605 added damage from poison, for a total of 1605 damage with the poison support. The total DPS is 321.

Now lets assume the target was ignited constantly, to try to make up the difference. The ignite damage will be 20% of the fire hit per second. It will last 5 seconds, since multiple ignites don't stack.
Therefore, the target will take an extra 44 fire damage, which brings the total damage of the added fire support to 1484, a total dps of 296.8.

So in a 5 second fight poison beats out added fire by (321/296.8 ~= 1.08) 8%, and increases the total DPS by 60.5% (vs 44% for added fire, 48.4% assuming constant ignite). This is with no other supports.

But how long does the fight have to be for the two gems to be equal? Lets test, using the same above assumptions.

After 1 second: (poison) 2 phys hits, 1.5 poison ticks (2 stacks), 166 damage. (added fire) 2 phys hits, 2 fire hits, 1 ignite tick, 196.8 damage.
After 2 seconds: (poison) 4 phys hits, 5 poison ticks (4 stacks), 510 damage. (added fire) 4 phys hits, 4 fire hits, 2 ignite ticks, 593.6 damage.
After 3 seconds: (poison) 6 phys hits, 10.5 poison ticks (6 stacks), 831 damage. (added fire) 6 phys hits, 6 fire hits, 3 ignite ticks, 890.4 damage.
After 4 seconds: (poison) 8 phys hits, 18 poison ticks (8 stacks), 1196 damage. (added fire) 8 phys hits, 8 fire hits, 4 ignite ticks, 1187.2 damage.

So Poison does more damage than Added Fire in a fight lasting 4 or more seconds, in this case.

@xMustard The purpose of this thread is to discuss my build, not debate about how much you think the poison gem is terrible. Please keep your comments on point and back up any claim with relevant data. Just because poison doesn't seem to work for your character doesn't mean it's terrible. My own math and playtesting have shown it to be superior to supports like added fire or phys to light for a build like my own.

Edit: Fixed math. (5 + 4.5 + ... + 0.5) is 27.5, not 30.

posting hypothetical scenario's is exactly what is deceiving yourselves. "lets say 1 stack and 100 physical damage and compare what is better" great. but do you actually only have one stack and ONLY do physical damage? no.

i used real world numbers and any other BV build that does the same will come out with similar results. if you want to use the poison gem thats completely fine with me, but im getting a little tired with everybody claiming its like 66-250% better than anything else when it clearly is not basing calculations off actual data and numbers rather than hypothetical garbage just to try to "proof your point".

"

Basing things on tooltip DPS is in general a bad idea - so lets go with average damage per hit, so we don't have to take cast speed / crit / crit multi into account. Scaling is based on base damage anyway so we don't have to care about these factors.

this proves it right here. you don't want to go with tooltip but you want to go with average damage per hit? thats how you get the exact average hit is by taking your tooltip and dividing it by your casts per second. no other way can you find your average hit as accurately. this also includes criticals and crit damage, which you need to do if you want to base it off real world numbers because guess what - your build has critical hits and critical damage.

its just hilarious to me. you do whatever you want but stop throwing around all this misinformation

edit: this build is based with the poison damage, and that is fine, im not complaining about that or trying to divert away from it. i only used numbers from my build in order to give real numbers.

obviously people can build however they want. some don't use crit even though crit is a straight up boost to damage. but to not go crit and say its superior is silly.

"

xMustard wrote:

posting hypothetical scenario's is exactly what is deceiving yourselves. "lets say 1 stack and 100 physical damage and compare what is better" great. but do you actually only have one stack and ONLY do physical damage? no.

If it's true for 1 stack that does 100 physical damage it will be the same for 50 stacks dealing some other amount of damage. That's the commutative property of multiplication.

Also, I've looked over your own numbers. You did your poison calculation wrong (forgot to account for poison stacks building up).

Your base damage over 5s: 2,834,000
Your poison damage per stack/s: 1,004

(Assuming 50 BV stacks like you did to calc dmg).
The damage added is therefore (50*1,004*5 + 50*1,004*4.5 + .... + 50*1,004*0.5) = 50*1,004*(5 + 4.5 + 4 + 3.5 + 3 + 2.5 + 2 + 1.5 + 1 + 0.5) = 50*1,004*27.5 = 1,380,500 added damage from poison

Total Damage = 2,834,000 + 1,380,500 = 4,214,500 (higher than either Added Fire or Phys to Light)

Your own numbers suggest it will be a better support than added fire or phys to light.

Cheers

-Savage

"

zSavage wrote:

If it's true for 1 stack that does 100 physical damage it will be the same for 50 stacks dealing some other amount of damage.

sure, again this is hypothetical and unrealistic though because you are not going to only be doing physical and chaos damage.

in order to only do physical and chaos damage, you can't run hatred, any heralds, or any damage enhancing flasks outside of atziri's promise. is this realistic? sure as hell isn't for any BV build i've looked at.

also, though i will admit i think you are correct i really did mess up. because it doesn't just double the damage. ya the 2nd second ends up 3x the damage or else im discounting the first seconds damage.

so yes your calculations are correct if BV hits once every .5 seconds. that does make quite the difference.

well im unable to recolour my chest right now, but im super looking forward to ascendancy patch when poison is incorporated into my build automatically due to flask use!

Added build guide vid in videos section.