Frost Blades

Close to the end of Cruel, level 53 atm.

Frost Blades is abysmal starting out. It became playable for me in Act 2 with LMP + any random damage support. With that clearing packs becomes reasonable, with single-target remaining mediocre but workable. Now I have good enough weapons and damage from the tree that the skill actually feels pretty good to play.

In a vacuum it's a fine skill. Taken in context with the rest of the game, I feel like playing Reave or Ethereal Knives would feel similar but be strictly better.

Edit: Finished Cruel, but the more I play the skill the more I wonder why I'm bothering. Doesn't help that I screwed up my build by not taking enough life, so I'm rerolling and trying a different skill.

only worth it for aesthetics if you like homing blades. If not take reave.

some frostblades mapping fun

http://plays.tv/video/55b661d450da757507

Do specific nodes such as "% Increased Physical Damage with Daggers" apply to both the initial hit and the projectile when I am using a dagger?

I know that nodes which specify melee do not, but this is confusing me.

yes they work for the melee hit and the projectile because the description of the damage is increased "physical damage", even if it was 'increased physical damage with 1h melee weapons' that would still work for both because the type of damage it describes is 'physical damage' not 'melee physical damage'.

Im gonna copy/pasta a post from a different thread where that described it in a bit more detail

"

Worth noting, there are often 2 key phrases in the wording of damage nodes. One describes the damage being dealt, one describes the equipment the character has to have to qualify for the node. Example..

"20% increased physical damage with 1 handed melee weapons"

you need to look at a line like that and split it up like this...

"20% increased physical damage with 1 handed melee weapons"

even tho the word melee is on this node it will still apply to both the projectile and the initial melee hit. the description of the damage it increases, highlighted in red, is simply "physical damage", its not specific to melee or projectile. Only the condition of the gear you have to be using has the melee tag, which is highlighted in green. That is fine because you are using a melee weapon with this skill.

On the other hand a node like this...

"20% increased melee physical damage while holding a shield"

the description of the damage itself has the melee tag, so that will only apply to the melee hit not the projectile.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

yes they work for the melee hit and the projectile because the description of the damage is increased "physical damage", even if it was 'increased physical damage with 1h melee weapons' that would still work for both because the type of damage it describes is 'physical damage' not 'melee physical damage'.

Im gonna copy/pasta a post from a different thread where that described it in a bit more detail

"

Worth noting, there are often 2 key phrases in the wording of damage nodes. One describes the damage being dealt, one describes the equipment the character has to have to qualify for the node. Example..

"20% increased physical damage with 1 handed melee weapons"

you need to look at a line like that and split it up like this...

"20% increased physical damage with 1 handed melee weapons"

even tho the word melee is on this node it will still apply to both the projectile and the initial melee hit. the description of the damage it increases, highlighted in red, is simply "physical damage", its not specific to melee or projectile. Only the condition of the gear you have to be using has the melee tag, which is highlighted in green. That is fine because you are using a melee weapon with this skill.

On the other hand a node like this...

"20% increased melee physical damage while holding a shield"

the description of the damage itself has the melee tag, so that will only apply to the melee hit not the projectile.

Thanks Snokrle, you've cleared that up for me. Cool video btw. :)

Hi. I hit lvl 80 with shadow yesterday (WB league), and wanted to share some thoughts on Frost Blades. I'll try to keep it constructive and simple.

FB - in its current state - is super bad. My build is a 1h&shield crit dagger (selffound bino's) + high eva + P. acro + high hp shadow. I leveled up to 70 with it as an aoe attack, and VS (viper strike) for single target. The [selffound] leveling process was very slow, even after acquiring insane dagger around lvl 30 and a 5L ar/eva chest from a corrupted strongbox around level 55.

1. You might think that FB has a big potential, because it belongs to "contrary" projectile AND melee categories. Because of that, the skill functionality may seem very similar to Spectral Throw. But it doesn't. So first problem: melee dmg modifiers affect only the initial hit, and the initial hit isn't a projectile (even though it has an animation of a flying frost shard, it is only a very long range melee attack) so projectile dmg doesn't affect it. And vice versa for projectiles flying behind the first target. This creates a situation where you need to find a good balance between % projectile increases, % projectile speed and % melee dmg. If you stack too much projectile stuff, the dmg dealt to the initial target will be shit (which means that you will need to use a single target skill even for white/champion packs as a finisher) if you go for a lot of melee dmg, then better go for cleave/reave/sweep/whatever. Pure % physical and "% with X weapon" nodes are the only efficient option.
Suggestion: make the initial hit a "melee-projectile" attack.

2. Initial target requirement (targeting) is unimaginably frustrating. It probably has been mentioned many times already, so I'm not going to elaborate here.
Suggestion: allow players to use this attack by standing still. Who cares if FB becomes a cold version of LightningS/MoltenS, just make it fucking usable...

3. Between all of the awesome projectile nodes in duelist/ranger/shadow sectors, there are only two good "cold projectile" clusters: Fangs of Frost and Flash Freeze.
Suggestion: guess what... we need at least one more! And make it kinda unique, like +1% more attack speed for every target chilled by you or something, so Ice Shot and Hypothermia [support gem] users will also be pleased!

4. Crap AoE potential. 1 initial + 3 behind it is simply not enough. Once again, this has probably been brought before, so I'm not gonna write too much here. Most of the projectile support gems are really bad with FB, plus see point #1. I've tested almost everything, and so far Pierce is the best if you want more AoE (1 + 3 + 3 with NO penalties). Forget about chain/lmp/gmp/fork - the loss in damage is too hard.
Suggestion: either make it 1 + 4, or increase base damage multiplier.

5. Initial hit range scaling only with weapon range, frozen shards range (AoE) scaling only with projectile speed. Do you see where it's going? Look at reave, sweep, or ground slam. You can use them standing still, and increasing AoE gives you both more initial hit range (reave) and the overall area of effect - you don't need two separate mods. Spectral throw comes into mind again, with which projectile speed equals range, and lmp/gmp equals aoe. But it is not the same, as lmp/gmp are sophisticated support gems, and increased aoe can be found everywhere -> gear/support gem/passive tree/weapon implicit mod.
Suggestion: include some special rule for FB, like: "for every 20% projectile speed above the standard value, FB's initial hit gains additional +1 weapon range"

6. I actually like two things about FB: that the frozen shards are homing, and their graphics/sounds are really cool. But that's it.


TL;DR: Frost Blades are bad in almost every aspect. If you have some experience with this skill, post feedback, so GGG will better realize how many of us are disappointed. For now, reave/cleave/sweep/ST (depending on your weapon and playstyle choices) outclass this skill.

I want to like this skill, it's cool in theory, but it's only 75% of what it needs to be. I don't think the damage is too low or anything, but the mechanics are overly penalizing. I think the best way to highlight this is to compare it to Ice Arrow. I'm level 40 so far and have had very little access to supports to test.

Damage:
Both are roughly the same. Ice arrow should do slightly more damage per target hit I believe.

Targeting:
Ice Arrow is much easier to use. Frost Blades can be aimed at nothing and waste your time and mana, or you might target the wrong monster towards the back of a pack, losing out on AoE potential. Ice Arrow will always explode on the closest target in the path even if you click behind it, improving the efficiency.

AoE:
Ice Arrow hits all targets in the cone. Frost Blades only hits 3 targets in the cone. Frost Blades has a longer range on the projectiles, helping against spread out monsters, but only targets enemies in a cone. Monsters usually clump up in circular patterns or encircle you. In these situations, Frost Blades is actually far less likely to hit multiple targets, especially given the targeting issues.

Restrictions:
/Ice Arrow only hits AoE in a cone.
/Does nothing extra to single targets.
/AoE cone is small.

/Frost Blades only hits aoe in a cone
/Does nothing extra to single targets.
/Only shoots projectiles at 3 targets.

Comparison:
A small cone that hits unlimited targets is better than a large cone that only hits 3.
Ice Arrow is far more usable with it's much longer range and easier targeting.

Conclusion:
The cone-restriction on Frost Blades is completely unwarranted. With a 360 degree acquisition arc, this skill would actually be comparable to Ice Arrow, serving as 2 different flavors of innately AoE, ranged, ice, physical-based skills. With the cone-restriction, Frost Blades is strictly worse. This is especially true when leveling where support gems are very limited. Multistrike doesn't help the issues with AoE, only with targeting, so chain or melee splash are probably the most helpful.

Final Question:
What is the reason for the cone restriction on projectile targeting? The skill would be so much fun if it wasn't ignoring the 3+ enemies nearby because they aren't standing behind my target.

I think we need clarification from GGG on their goals for skill design. Otherwise, the feedback we're leaving may be at cross purposes. Every time someone from GGG has brought up Frost Blades, it's been in reference to filling a needed niche for an interesting low level dexterity melee skill. Chris talked about early player retention, Rory talked about interesting upgrade paths along the lines of Final Fantasy spells, and the website itself suggests that Frost Blades is a low level skill. It was always my impression that PoE achieved the increased ability power and flashiness through support gems rather than introducing direct ranks of active skill gems. I was never fond of the planned obsolescence of skills in Diablo 3.

So if Frost Blades is meant to be something you dispose of as soon as you get access to Reave, then I guess that's all there is to say. But if it's meant to be an endgame option alongside other skills that a dexterity melee build could use as a primary damage ability, then it sorely misses the mark. It's Reave with a target cap of four, and it gets no scaling from the superior 'melee' stats like the MPD gem or shield nodes. Any range advantage you might argue with the 'increased melee range' is immediately outclassed by the existence of Vaal Reave, which is stronger than ever. Gems like LMP, Fork, and Chain can relax that target cap, but at the cost of damage, where Reave's IncAoE doesn't have that pitfall.

"

Uvne wrote:

So if Frost Blades is meant to be something you dispose of as soon as you get access to Reave, then I guess that's all there is to say.

If this is what Frost Blades is meant to be, then it is even worse off. Any class that has access to it can also level with Spectral Throw or even Lightning Strike, and 3/4 could also opt for Cleave. All are far better options than using Frost Blades through Act 1. Frost Blades is absolutely terrible at that level - With supports it is sort of okay, but without it really isn't worth anything.