Reduce 'Less Damage' penalty by 20 or 30% on 'Ranged Attack Totem' and 'Spell Totem' (good reasons!)
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You get a +1 from me sir and it needs no explanation why, your doing that perfectly well yourself.
It's noteworthy that most if not all of your suggestions are very accurate and well founded. (both by fact's and examples to illustrate what you desire) Carry on the good fight sir, the community will thank you for it. At the moment i see totems as nothing more as a way to apply debufs in the end-game. And in most cases you can apply those debufs better yourself. (curse totem comes to mind, RoA + blind totems for RaT etc) Peace, -Boem- edit : i should note, obviously discarding flame totem and shockwave totems for this discussion since they are irrelevant to it :). Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes Last edited by Boem on Feb 15, 2015, 6:12:49 PM
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" Why do you have to be so antagonistic? Besides, i didnt read all that, who has the time for reading such a wall of text anyways, and i have a short attention span as it is. So no thx. Nice that you missed my other post entirely anyways. If people didnt stuff all gems into the damn 6L OP gg faceroll the game item setups GGG wouldnt nerf them so hard. But its GGGs fault for even having 6L items, this game should have only 4L items. |
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" Last time I checked, Arc + Spell totem did considerably more damage than Shockwave Totem. So if ST made it to Atziri, there is absolutely no reason for things like Arc to have made it there and performed better. " After reading this I'm fairly certain you're going to say the old Sporker wasn't broken, and it was. " Are you really trying to change the argument to balancing, buffing, and nerfing instead of the topic you posted about? Balancing is done by buffing and nerfing. A game that buffs or nerfs things just to change the game isn't balancing at all. You can't balance without buffing or nerfing, but you don't have to balance by buffing and nerfing. And what makes you think I don't know what buffing is? This is hilarious. " End game would be the beginning of maps and Atziri. Once more stuff comes out, that might change. " I highly doubt that. If bosses are made harder than the current Atziri, fewer builds will be able to play that "end game content" than there are rich people in the world. If that does end up being the case, GGG is going to have a major balance issue on their hands. They seem to favor low-life aura stackers, and the few other builds that have god-like power, since they don't nerf them. " And Flame Totem doesn't have the penalty, which Incinerate would offset quite easily. So I'd say it is relevant. " Read above. Spell Totem gives 50% less. Incinerate can give up to 400% more. Flame Totem gives 0% more/less. It is a good example. " Again, it would be buffing. If you're changing something to be stronger, you are buffing it. " No. Builds can survive in parties but not solo. Builds that survive solo can survive in any party, regardless of what other types of builds they are with. I measure a build's effectiveness only by how much it can solo and nothing else. There is only one build I know of that can solo all content save one map mod. It's low-life aura abusers and blood magic mods on maps. They're immune to physical due to IC, immune to elemental due to crit recharge flasks, Saffell's, and purity auras (99% or 100% resistance, doesn't make a damn difference), and are essentially immune to chaos damage since Shav's prevents it from bypassing ES and chaos damage is minimal anyways. No other build comes close to it, and yet it hasn't been nerfed and damage avoidance was. Yet damage avoidance had more mods and content that it could not participate in. | |
" My head would have to be the size of Earth, and my hands, the size of asteroids, to perform the biggest *Facepalm* regarding your ignorance. For someone who doesn't have enough time to read or write anything, you sure do manage to make the time to continue replying over and over. It is not that I am being antagonistic; it is that when you come at me with words like 'get real', be ready for it and prepare a good comeback, because I can get real technical at that point. This is why I cannot take replies like yours seriously for the simple fact you did not read everything I have pointed out, which is the direct reason why you do not truly understand where I am coming from, and that which is why your arguments do not stand up against mine. When game developers ignore the criticism that would improve their game, the game fails. Just because a game receives a great amount of praise vs. only a small amount of criticism does not mean to call it a day and make a foolish misplaced assumption that it is perfect. (me) Last edited by HeavyMetalGear on Feb 16, 2015, 3:45:28 PM
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" When I am finished with my dinner and doing dishes, I will get back to you. So far, you keep bringing up Shockwave Totem and Flame Totem, which then gets me to arguing with you about two different unrelated Totem gems. And so as a reminder, my OP is simply addressing the % Less Damage penalties incurred by Ranged Attack Totem and Spell Totem, and nothing more. When game developers ignore the criticism that would improve their game, the game fails. Just because a game receives a great amount of praise vs. only a small amount of criticism does not mean to call it a day and make a foolish misplaced assumption that it is perfect. (me) Last edited by HeavyMetalGear on Feb 16, 2015, 4:32:53 PM
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Pardon my late reply.
" Yes, in fact, Shockwave Totem did make it to Atziri according to this Build of the Week http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1195449 with Chris Wilson's thoughts in the video. Anyway, as for Arc + Spell Totem dealing more damage than Shockwave Totem, that does not necessarily mean (and has not been proven far as I know) it can make it/has made it all the way to Atziri. If you got a link to prove an Arc + Spell Totem setup made it to Atziri and killed her, I would like to see it. Otherwise, my arguments on why Ranged Attack Totem and Spell Totem are not so end-game worthy still stand, even against an easier boss like Dominus. The reasons why the Shockwave Totem setup got to Atziri is due to the following: 1. Shockwave Totem has no % Less Damage or % Less Attack Speed penalties like Ranged Attack Totem and Spell Totem do. 2. Shockwave Totem's ability to Knockback enemies, notably melee-based enemies, helps in keeping the Totem alive for longer periods of time than a Spell Totem. 3. The way the player in the linked video went about the Shockwave Totem build was not only clever, but the damage was also sufficient enough to take on Atziri. " " Correct. It was broken, but not directly because of Spell Totem... The brokeness of the Sporker setup was more due to how the Skill Gems Spark and Fork used to be, along with how the old Totem nodes on the skill tree used to be (among other old Skill Tree nodes) in which players only needed to allocate just a few Totem nodes and not much else. In other words, way back when, anyone with a single Sporker Totem was just as powerful as any single player that did not utilize Totems in their builds. " Quote all of what I say, please, not just cherry-picked parts. " It is hilarious! because you are the one who wanted to argue the terms 'nerf' and 'buff' on how neither of those terms could possibly = balance. The act of nerfing and/or buffing begets balance or overpoweredness, and certain types of balances can either be a negative balance, a positive balance, or a balance that is neither too negative or too positive so as to not be too disagreeable or agreeable with the community. Therefore, since you want to get technical, the suggestion I made in my OP to reduce the % Less Damage penalties incurred by Ranged Attack Totem and Spell Totem would, yes, be an act of buffing, yet it would be for the sake of balance (not overpoweredness [there is a difference]) so as to make Ranged Attack Totem and Spell Totem at least borderline end-game viable. And so if you are going into this argument by making misplaced assumptions that my suggestion to reduce the % Less Damage penalties (you say is a buff, if you truly want to call it a buff) is for the sake of overpoweredness, it is not! My suggestion is simply for the developers to make the Ranged Attack Totem and Spell Totem at least 'borderline end-game viable' (especially when linked with LMP or GMP), because as of now in their current state, they really are not that effective toward end-game. " " Whoa, I am a complete noob... I didn't know that! Except (as said to someone else in these comments) there are technically two types of end-game, and that is after beating Dominus (since that is the true stopping point of Act 3), and THEN there is end-game Maps and the other end-game boss Atziri. Anyway, my point is that before end-game Maps were implemented, and before the Atziri boss was ever thought of, the original end-game was the Sceptre of the Gods monsters area and the end-game boss Dominus who rules therein. And if you want to get even more technical and go further back in time, the original end-game before that was the Piety boss. And so I used the Sceptre of the Gods monster area and the last boss Dominus as examples to compare how a Ranged Attack Totem and Spell Totem build MIGHT be able to conquer the original end-game, yet not the newly implemented end-game areas that are now used to benchmark the effectiveness of builds. " " You are wrong... The reason you are wrong is because if Act 4 does indeed include areas well above Level 69 (let's say up to Level 80), the experience gain for players will come more easier to gain those higher levels so as to make players more capable of completing the new end-game content in Act 4 and beyond... Do you really think the area level throughout the storyline is going to idle at Level 69 with every new Act that is released? With that being said, I don't know where you're reading I ever said there was going to be a harder boss than Atziri (even if so, who cares), but my point in the above quoted directly from me is that Ranged Attack Totem and Spell Totem in their current state can barely, if at all, take on Dominus effectively, much less a boss like Atziri or a boss tougher than Atziri. And as for the rest of what you said in the above quoted directly from you, GGG, no matter how hard they try, cannot necessarily nerf every little thing for reason being if they begin nerfing too much, the nerfs are going to affect too many other builds negatively so as to spread like an epidemic across various nodes and skill gems on which those other builds rely on. Therefore, with that just said in mind, I would not call what you pointed out as something favored by GGG, because some builds are so cleverly put together that even nerfing them won't exactly help since there is not only a work-around, but the nerfs themselves would affect other builds negatively to such a point where the risks may/will outweigh the benefits. " " Right, and that is one of the reasons why Totems like Spell Totem is used, despite the penalty, because the gem Incinerate gives much % Damage per stage, much like Flameblast works. With that in mind, that combination is not OP because of Spell Totem; that combination is OP because it is a clever combination so as to counteract the % Less Damage penalty with or without my implemented suggestion to lower that % Less Damage penalty. In that situation, Flame Totem is going to be OP no matter what unless the % Damage per stage given off by Incinerate is nerfed... Well, I don't see that happening anytime soon because nerfing Incinerate would ruin its effectiveness for builds not utilization Totems, and equally as much, nerfing the Spell Totem gem even more than it is already is, would ruin it even more. The above stated is a good example of how the risks outweigh the benefits with certain nerfs, and nerfing one or the other, Incinerate or Spell Totem, just to counteract a clever combination, would lessen the effectiveness of both gems, thereby turning away players to ever use them. And unless I am missing something here, as for Flame Totem in the exampled gem combination you gave, Incinerate (because it is not a Support Gem) has no affect on Flame Totem, and Spell Totem (despite Flame Totem being classified as a spell) also does not work with Flame Totem. Therefore, Spell Totem + Incinerate are the only two gems that would work together from the gem combination example you provided. So what are you trying to prove here? Are you trying to say Spell Totem is the direct source of OP because of this combination of gems? Well, it is not if that's what you're thinking. " " Again, since you want to continue to be extremely technical, there is a difference between buffing for the sake of overpoweredness (usually not noticed by players until such buffs are tested), and buffing for the sake of balancing a particular gem so its damage is 'fair.' Therefore, what I am saying is the damage output from Ranged Attack Totem and Spell Totem is neither 'fair' nor 'strong' to begin with given all the mathematical examples on why/how in my OP. And even with my suggested reduced % Less Damage penalty implemented into the game, the damage output from Ranged Attack Totem and Spell Totem would still be subpar. " " I do not see how saying the above quoted from you supports your end of this discussion, because it does not. You said nothing more than what I already know. And so in the case of Ranged Attack Totem and Spell Totem, it does neither good damage solo or in a Party. To sum up how the DPS is like with Ranged Attack Totem and Spell Totem builds, the DPS is nothing more than slow that barely gets the job done. In nearly all Ranged Attack Totem and Spell Totem builds I have seen player utilize in-game, when I see a player running those Totems in a Party, the other, more powerful players basically carry the Ranged Attack Totem/Spell Totem player(s) before the Totems can even take out a single mob. " Then your method of build benchmarking is backwards, because good builds not only solo well, yet they also perform well in Parties, and when a build can also do well in a Party (since mobs and bosses become tougher with every new Party Member that joins) THEN a player's build can truly be crowned a good build. Anyway, in regards to such builds you speak of, it is at that point (as I said) that certain nerfs comes with certain risks that outweigh the benefits because such nerfs would spread like an epidemic so as to have negatives effects on other builds that rely on those Auras, that rely on the Saffel's Shield and the Shavronne's Chest Piece (or whatever other gear pieces), and that rely on anything else associated with these particular builds you speak of. So should such builds be nerfed? Well, yes and no for said reasons. It depends on who you ask. Conclusively, for the sake of this discussion (hypothetically speaking), even if the builds you speak of were nerfed, and in turn, getting what wish(ed) for, with the right Elemental Aura(s), with the right Gear, and with the right Elemental Flask(s), almost every viable end-game build can conquer ALL content in the game whether going solo or tagging along with a Party. Given my explanations, what I am saying is the type of builds you speak of are not the only builds capable of dominating all areas and bosses in Path of Exile. When game developers ignore the criticism that would improve their game, the game fails. Just because a game receives a great amount of praise vs. only a small amount of criticism does not mean to call it a day and make a foolish misplaced assumption that it is perfect. (me) Last edited by HeavyMetalGear on Feb 17, 2015, 1:01:02 AM
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Historically, Self Cast used to be pretty dead. Spell Totems and Traps used to role. This was partially thanks to reflect immunity, that made them so popular.
Then GGG came out with Spell Echo, which brought self cast back to life, while also comparatively nerfing totems and traps since they can't use spell echo. Now, in a leveling party, people often laugh at those using totems. GGG did not actually nerf totems or traps directly. But they did, comparatively, when a spell using spell echo is added to the comparison. This means that totems could be buffed a little in the future. The 50% penalty isn't that bad, if you have 2 totems, and any serious build would. So now you'd really want to compare the socket tax of using the totem gem, and the 30% less cast speed compared to things like a spell running spell echo. And, yes, it is very possible that reducing this less cast spell multiple down to 25% or similar could be a good idea... once spell echo has firmly changed everyone's behavior. That's how GGG does it. Big changes (nerfs) to change player behavior, and then slow changes (buffs) to put things in actual desired balance. How might I address these problems? A unique chest which supports socketed gems by a spell totem, and that also gives totems 7-15% more cast speed or similar would actually do the trick. This would be an alternative to triple totems, where a 4L would be very viable. (And doesn't need then even be a chest, but keeping it a chest keeps it from being used with soul mantle.) |
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" They should just make reflect go to the player instead. Would have been easier. |
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" That is quite possibly one of the most well thought-out and accurate comments I have seen here thus far (from a historical viewpoint). However, since I have ran more than several Spell Totem builds with variation in the not-so-distant past (and Ranged Attack Totem builds), I can tell you that even with Spell Echo, it did not really/does not really do much justice for Spell Totem so as to make it considerable to use without any reasonable doubt in mind. At least, Spell Totem is not something I would consider using anymore in its current state for said reasons. I have tried and tried to make Spell Totem seem good several times before, but the simple fact is no matter how many times you try to polish a turd, it still remains a turd, unless something is done by the developers, that which is the reason why I created this thread, because the problem(s) with these two gems need to be addressed. With all the above stated in mind, I do not see anybody arguing in the comments here about Ranged Attack Totem, so I must not be all too wrong by saying Ranged Attack Totem is considerably worse than Spell Totem, either. Let's hear your thoughts about Ranged Attack Totem since cere_ is the only one in the comments here that has mentioned Ranged Attack Totem, and I have already addressed that comment. When game developers ignore the criticism that would improve their game, the game fails. Just because a game receives a great amount of praise vs. only a small amount of criticism does not mean to call it a day and make a foolish misplaced assumption that it is perfect. (me) Last edited by HeavyMetalGear on Feb 16, 2015, 3:13:33 PM
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I think, spell totem is not designed for doing damage, its more for beeing a support skill to support your main attacks.
For example, if you are a Phys/Cold/Fire based melee, you can use EE with a Spell Totem linked to level 1 Lighning Ball. Similar fast hitting spells are Glacial Cascade, and Firestorm. If you have to remove a huge amount of corpses, you can use Spell Totem with Offering Spells. |
