Spell Echo needs downsides

Spell Echo has become too mandatory. For any spell that CAN use it, it is almost always the best or second best support gem. This includes spells like flameblast where you would not expect it (given the 10% less damage modifier), simply because 69% faster is just too good.

This is not about nerfing casters.

Spell Echo is so generic in its damage boosting that it could easily be nerfed and all affected spells given an X% damage boost instead.

It grants a ~52% dps boost (0.9*1.69)
at the cost of standing still 18% longer (2/1.69 -- casting twice but at 1.69 times the speed)
and ~10% increased mana consumption rate ( 1.3*1.69/2 -- you're only paying once for both spells)

Compared to similar gems:

Faster Casting's relative dps boost is dependent on your cast speed and usually ranges from 49% (20/20) with 0% cast speed from other sources to ~33% with 50% cast speed from other sources (50% or more from tree and gear is fairly common - 70% is quite possible as well). Its cost is also much higher.
Faster Casting is a good support gem because it sets a base line for spells/builds with low cast speed or few other options while becoming less than average for those with high cast speed from auras/gear/passives.

Multistrike The obvious comparison. Multistrike grants 107% more speed and 57% increased damage.
But it also has a 180% mana multiplier, 36% less Damage and random auto-targeting on 2 of its 3 strikes. The mana multiplier means you need a 80% higher unreserved mana pool which is quite significant for many melees.
The 36% less Damage is relevant for things like Infernal Blow and Herald of Ash's Burn while random auto-targeting can be annoying if the situation or build requires you to focus on one target.
Additionally the speed and less Damage are only worth ~32% more damage - the 57% increased MPD is usually worth ~10% more damage (often less) putting this gem at <45% more damage. This is for melees though who have 2 49% physical damage gems and WED with its 59% damage boost.


Imagine spell echo had something like 40% less damage but 120% more cast speed. ( =32% more damage) but affected spells would be buffed approprietly.
Then you'd have to ask yourself things like:

- Do i rely on the elemental effect of my spell? Burning deals a lot less damage. Lightning/Cold Damage will not shock/freeze as long (or sometimes not at all in the case of Heralds and support gems or high life enemies)

- Does my spell benefit from the increased cast rate itself ? If you're relying on stacks like Incinerate/Flameblast or chance based effects(not crit though) this might be exactly what you want even if the dps boost itself is a little worse than the alternatives.

- Do i benefit from smaller hits? Elemental Reflect could be handled this way by limiting the reflected Damage to a range where it can be absorbed by Arctic Armour or where bad luck with spell block/dodge is less relevant.

Also, combining the last two you could argue that it reduces the overkill damage hiting two rows of enemies rather than one(with projectile spells) without losing dps to single targets (like chain does).
Spell Echo would grant you "more" in a pattern depending on the spell. (rather than a fixed +2 chains, +2/4 projectiles or [concentrated effect])

tl;dr: Spell Echo should not be mandatory, but Casters should not get nerfed either. Spell Echo could be an interesting choice instead of a simple dps boost.

"

Spoiler

Spell Echo has become too mandatory. For any spell that CAN use it, it is almost always the best or second best support gem. This includes spells like flameblast where you would not expect it (given the 10% less damage modifier), simply because 69% faster is just too good.

This is not about nerfing casters.

Spell Echo is so generic in its damage boosting that it could easily be nerfed and all affected spells given an X% damage boost instead.

It grants a ~52% dps boost (0.9*1.69)
at the cost of standing still 18% longer (2/1.69 -- casting twice but at 1.69 times the speed)
and ~10% increased mana consumption rate ( 1.3*1.69/2 -- you're only paying once for both spells)

Compared to similar gems:

Faster Casting's relative dps boost is dependent on your cast speed and usually ranges from 49% (20/20) with 0% cast speed from other sources to ~33% with 50% cast speed from other sources (50% or more from tree and gear is fairly common - 70% is quite possible as well). Its cost is also much higher.
Faster Casting is a good support gem because it sets a base line for spells/builds with low cast speed or few other options while becoming less than average for those with high cast speed from auras/gear/passives.

Multistrike The obvious comparison. Multistrike grants 107% more speed and 57% increased damage.
But it also has a 180% mana multiplier, 36% less Damage and random auto-targeting on 2 of its 3 strikes. The mana multiplier means you need a 80% higher unreserved mana pool which is quite significant for many melees.
The 36% less Damage is relevant for things like Infernal Blow and Herald of Ash's Burn while random auto-targeting can be annoying if the situation or build requires you to focus on one target.
Additionally the speed and less Damage are only worth ~32% more damage - the 57% increased MPD is usually worth ~10% more damage (often less) putting this gem at <45% more damage. This is for melees though who have 2 49% physical damage gems and WED with its 59% damage boost.


Imagine spell echo had something like 40% less damage but 120% more cast speed. ( =32% more damage) but affected spells would be buffed approprietly.
Then you'd have to ask yourself things like:

- Do i rely on the elemental effect of my spell? Burning deals a lot less damage. Lightning/Cold Damage will not shock/freeze as long (or sometimes not at all in the case of Heralds and support gems or high life enemies)

- Does my spell benefit from the increased cast rate itself ? If you're relying on stacks like Incinerate/Flameblast or chance based effects(not crit though) this might be exactly what you want even if the dps boost itself is a little worse than the alternatives.

- Do i benefit from smaller hits? Elemental Reflect could be handled this way by limiting the reflected Damage to a range where it can be absorbed by Arctic Armour or where bad luck with spell block/dodge is less relevant.

Also, combining the last two you could argue that it reduces the overkill damage hiting two rows of enemies rather than one(with projectile spells) without losing dps to single targets (like chain does).
Spell Echo would grant you "more" in a pattern depending on the spell. (rather than a fixed +2 chains, +2/4 projectiles or [concentrated effect])

tl;dr: Spell Echo should not be mandatory, but Casters should not get nerfed either. Spell Echo could be an interesting choice instead of a simple dps boost.

Same story with multistrike...Same story with LMP or GMP...Spell echo does just the same.

Maybe it's mana multiplier should be increased. The gem as it stands seems okay.

(and yes, you point to flameblast as being broken. That's a problem with that skill's functionality, not the support gem itself.)

"

LostKavi wrote:

(and yes, you point to flameblast as being broken. That's a problem with that skill's functionality, not the support gem itself.)

the damage of flameblast is irrelevant when it comes to multipliers if your goal is to maximize the damage(if flamblast did only half the damage it does now spell echo would still be a very good choice).

You're disregarding all i said about multistrike without any reasoning.

Also, how do things like lmp/gmp not have downsides other than their mana cost in your eyes? Some of the properties of the suggested spell echo apply to lmp/gmp just the same.
What is interesting about choosing spell echo in your opinion? The fact that there is both lmp and gmp grants a choice that you do not have with spell echo. I'm not arguing that lmp/gmp are perfect, btw.

I see no problems with how echo works now, Nn to change it.

Should we not be able to link echo and faster casting? Is that breaking the game to you?

just a thought but what about this?

spell echo:
recast the same spell with a 0.1 sec dealy
each level gives 3-4% more spell damage
80% less cast speed

it will basicaly trade overall dpm for burst damage

There will always be a best support gem. If the best gem gets nerfed, it switches to a new gem. Spell Echo has a downside already, anyways. You can't move for a moment when you initiate a skill linked with it.

If they nerf Spell Echo, in two months will you say the same about faster casting?

-1
No it doesn't need downsides.

I'm sick of people who want to nerf skills that are almost mandatory if you want to stay alive in cruel and merciless difficulties.

What is wrong with you man? This game is challenging enough already.

Wait, do people seriously think that the only support gem that makes self-cast viable needs a downside?

Fuck no. Spell Echo is fine where it is.

there actually is downside for Echo and Multi strike. Since you are double casting, you can't move before the second cast, it might kill you. Happened to me that i got charged by rhoa and that split second that i could not move actually killed me :)

"

Marxone wrote:

there actually is downside for Echo and Multi strike. Since you are double casting, you can't move before the second cast, it might kill you. Happened to me that i got charged by rhoa and that split second that i could not move actually killed me :)

Not to mention that you can be stunned, while three totems allow you to run away or recast them as needed.