[2.0 update!!!] Dyz's School of Stun - Stunlock the game - farm Atziri

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enril29a wrote:

zzzz

When I talked about endurance charges I meant "I don't see when you would use them". I don't see much benefit to having them at least not at the cost you're getting them. If you look at the numbers between the skill tree you posted and the skill tree I posted we're talking about an almost 50% more % increased physical damage on it on the duelist tree.

For this you're giving up about 50% armor (so like 25% less armor), 5% inc max life and your endurance charges. But you're going from 380.4% increased (melee) physical damage and 33% increased attack speed to 521.6% increase (melee) physical damage and 50% increased attack speed. You will deal A LOT more damage. You can also change it and drop some of it to get some defenses back etc. There are a lot of changes that can be made.

But the reason why spectral throw would be cool with this is that spectral throw usually has more area coverage than ground slam will have and spectral throw will stunlock most nonboss monsters as well (blues and similar aren't really a problem). But yes, you do lose damage mainly because you have to link LMP to it and it has similar damage effectiveness as ground slam to start.

Also I ran something like this as a Scion during Nemesis and I used spectral throw instead of ground slam. It was quite nice but the tree has changed massively since then. I would not recommend this build as a Scion, but a duelist seems excellent for it.

And you can always just not use spectral throw, I just liked the skill back then. The difference is literally just one point.

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Aelloon wrote:

Duelist high dps form

Apparently I didn't scroll over far enough to copy your skill tree, but I now completely see what you are talking about.

Yes, Duelist would get more damage that way, but IMO the lost defenses don't have much gain. Yes, more damage, but what does that damage amount to? The build is already Atziri proven, perhaps Uber is more easily done with your more damage intensive build.

I'm not trying to say you are wrong, I'm just asking how much damage is enough? The clear speed might get somewhat faster, but this build isn't about clearspeed.

You are correct in saying that the lowered defenses probably won't affect the survivability much, but I would definitely switch to self-cast immortal call with your tree. However, your immortal call would be severely gimped without those endurance charges.

Damage focused, I like your build, but I think it lacks the defense of why I like my version. I'm currently playing a flicker staff crit HoA build, and I WISH it had the defenses of my stun build.

It is an interesting way to go about it. I'd like to see more first hand details of how the build turned out.

This guide I put together is the result of my findings on my characters. I don't claim it is the only way to do it, but it definitely worked the way I did do it.

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Aelloon wrote:

Spoiler

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgQAmSu9gUd-FFJlTYTZbmkl376nG_qkGQHcvop4DVivqW426LXybEZkowHnOlI1knJsaf6nMP_TVtmGYA48_o_YvTIJOzsUcRQgNI7rCe4Ul7Telp_LTeP-CndT-OtQR4Y7CZb5NKy64kOmV_JFg7HqGBiRJyCcJ7akMZ464WCR9zKYCoErcqnfsqyqfNmUhyftUeZZ81g9_Eu0L8AaQT9sFmDEGemQVYcZITTLQ2dYp4SexQ4U5K0aON7B7DhX4nflMokEsxRN8B8CcaIAqWgyfg==

I don't want to pick, but I just noticed that with this build, you are only getting 2% health regen. This is really low if you want to run Death's Oath. It might also be a little more difficult to gear to cap all your resists, as you skip both the marauder resists area and the templar +10 all resists.

I speced into Death's Oath mainly for the stats, as both our trees are light on INT and DEX nodes. The other bonus's are nice, and it is still high armor for a pure armor build, while the chaos degen is pretty easily overcome with ming's and high health regen.

Again, I don't think my build is flawless, but there are gains and losses. For instance, as everything scales off physical (hatred, HoA, Added fire, Ming's), taking the elemental cluster in the Templar area leaves so much damage on the table. With all of those skills above active, you essentially double all phys damage. Taking elemental nodes (even really good ones) targets only about 40% of your total damage.

Give an take, damage and defense. This is why PoE character building pulled me in.

Enril, you primarily get your immortal call duration up via the duration support gem and amount of charges, correct? What if you forgo branching into the Duelist area, instead picking up the 90% increased skill duration nodes in conjunction with the support gem to ensure long-lasting Immortal Calls?

Also, with your skill gem links, why do you prioritize Faster Attacks over Melee Phys for both Ground Slam & Heavy Strike? For Ground Slam, why use Multistrike if you're looking to stun mobs?

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malboro_urchin wrote:

Enril, you primarily get your immortal call duration up via the duration support gem and amount of charges, correct? What if you forgo branching into the Duelist area, instead picking up the 90% increased skill duration nodes in conjunction with the support gem to ensure long-lasting Immortal Calls?

Currently, I'm getting something like 12 second Immortal call. I don't see the need in really trying to push for super long immortal calls when endurance charges are basically permanently at 7.

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malboro_urchin wrote:

Also, with your skill gem links, why do you prioritize Faster Attacks over Melee Phys for both Ground Slam & Heavy Strike?

For Heavy Strike, you should already deal nice damage with the 150% damage effectiveness. This is the bread and butter of the build, and this skill is probably more important to get in a 5-link first. Before you can get a 5 link, your attack speed is probably going to be pretty terrible using the recommended type of maul. Say, for instance, you have a Marohi Erqi. That maul is terribly slow, but the stun potential is real. You don't need the added melee damage over attack speed first.

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malboro_urchin wrote:

For Ground Slam, why use Multistrike if you're looking to stun mobs?

Keep in mind that Groundslam is your group clearing skill. If you don't use multistrike, you are slowing an already kinda slow clear speed, plus you are going to have to target yourself, which can be pretty annoying at times. When you run into things that you aren't stunning with groundslam, that's where you switch to HeavyStrike and stun them into a wall. Groundslam still sometimes won't stun the large mobs effectively (think rock golems) until your gearing and gems get up to those I linked.

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This is fine, but over all, you are getting 6% per node in the berserking cluster. Three nodes, 18% increased attack speed.

No, you're not. You have to count the points to get there as well.

Unless you have some weird fetish for Steel Skin (why, when you can negate physical damage completely by pushing a button), it's strictly inferior to the 4% ias at the Marauder's start.

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I use CWDT because rarely does it matter. I would suggest using it self cast if you are in an extra damage as element map, but even then, it usually doesn't matter much unless you surround yourself.

It's insurance to shut off Dominus's Touch of Gawd, or Piety's siege arrows. Those types of things.

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To really reach the stun threshold of the end-game bosses, this extra 15% does matter.

And once again, as per the chart:

130% Stun Threshold Reduction - Minimum for 100% stun 3.9%
145% Stun Threshold Reduction - Minimum for 100% stun 3.3%

Net increase of effective "stun damage", 18%.

At this point, one should have an Increased% multiplier of around 7.20. 7.20 * 1.18 = 8.5. 8.5 - 7.2 = 1.3.

130 / 4 = 32.5
130 / 6 = 21.6

So Stun Mastery is the virtual equivalent of 21.6 to 32.5% increased physical damage per point, depending on how many points you spend to take it. The tree you have linked in the opie has a 4.9 increased% multiplier, so for four points we're talking about 22% increased damage per point required to be strictly better.

Of course thinking in Increased% equivalent isn't the right way to evaluate it, since the stat in question is binary: Either you meet the stunlock requirement or you don't. My argument is you can without it. After all, a 7.2 increased multiplier is 47% more stun than this tree, and Stun Mastery is giving you 18%.

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For Ground Slam, why use Multistrike

Personally I prefer Increased Radius, since trash monsters liquefy instantly anyway. See more trouble in getting everything inside the slam more than anything else when it comes to clear speed.

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LimitedRooster wrote:

No, you're not. You have to count the points to get there as well.

From the highest entrance point from Marauder to Duelist, it costs 4 points to go up to the scion life wheel and get that 14% increased node. Those 4 points are roughly worth 5% increased max health per node. As those nodes are worth the trip for the increase health, Berserking is right there.

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LimitedRooster wrote:

Unless you have some weird fetish for Steel Skin (why, when you can negate physical damage completely by pushing a button), it's strictly inferior to the 4% ias at the Marauder's start.

Damage mitigation isn't worth less than damage. As I said above, it's give and take. You could increase two hand damage a ton more at the sacrifice of relying on just Immortal Call, but I don't like to do that.

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LimitedRooster wrote:

It's insurance to shut off Dominus's Touch of Gawd, or Piety's siege arrows. Those types of things.

This is not a facetank build, so activating Immortal Call to mitigate these attacks isn't the goal. The goal is that Dominus NEVER gets the chance to use that skill because he is stunned. Same with Piety. Why should it be self-cast? Does it matter that it's not? I don't think so, because everything should just be stunned. This is personal preference because I have enough physical defenses through armor to not need the self-cast.

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Stunlock

Doing enough damage with reduced stun threshold isn't just to achieve 100% stunlock. Stun duration plays a part in this. You technically don't need 100% chance to stun to stunlock a monster if you are hitting fast enough with decent stun duration.

I really think that we are getting into semantics of this build. Whether someone wants to follow what I did, or deviate, that's really up to them. If they want to try going for more damage, and less defense, relying on a self-cast Immortal call, not using Death's Oath, all that is totally doable. This guide lists what I did, how I did it, and what it accomplished. There is no best way to do any build in this game.

For all of your questions, I'm answering them with the reasoning I used in this build. If it's not sufficient for you to want to try my methods, that's fine, you are completely free to disagree, and go do your own build.

I simply saw a lack in stun focused builds and build guides for Marauders and wanted to contribute to the community. I'm all for you creating your own build, and posting it on the forums as well.

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LimitedRooster wrote:

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For Ground Slam, why use Multistrike

Personally I prefer Increased Radius, since trash monsters liquefy instantly anyway. See more trouble in getting everything inside the slam more than anything else when it comes to clear speed.

I don't like ground slam that much, i was leapslamming arround on my stun mara (at least while soloing) but if GS - only with AoE gem. http://i.imgur.com/9ZcM2Oj.jpg(actually it's another char, but u get the idea). This image is also answer to Aelloon talking about not gr8 coverage of GS compared to spectral throw.

Can I just say that, as someone who watched the OP create/work on this build back in Ambush and partied with him on countless Palace Dominus and Shrine Piety maps, I can vouch that this build works and gets things accomplished. All monsters stay permanently stunned with him in the party, and dual Palace Doms and dual Shrine Pietys end up being easy. And when I say permanently stunned, it means that they don't get any chance to attack, so there's no threat or "insurance" needed. Everyone who's ragging on the build and ripping it apart need to realize that this build isn't the one-all-to-end all, it's not perfect or flawless, but for OP it has been proven to work and continues to work in standard even after he put it back together with all the skill tree changes. It all boils down to preference - OP likes tanky, defensive builds so he built it that way, including in terms of his gear. Some other people may like high dps-ers, others like glass cannons. OP wanted this build to stun, and stun everything, and be super tanky on top of it. This build isn't about maximizing dps. If you prefer dps, then you are welcome to use OP's skill tree as a base and change some things around. Or you can make your own tree from scratch, set to your own preferences. OP's build isn't perfect, and neither is yours. There is no "best" or "perfect" way to do it - like I said, it's all about preference.

TL;DR: OP made a stunlock build that successfully permastuns everything in the game, including Palace Dom, Shrine Piety, and everything in the Atziri map except Atziri herself, who is immune to being stunned. He even posted videos to prove it. He's sharing it with people because he loves this build. You are welcome to try it out, or if it's not your cup of tea, make and post your own build on the forums instead of ripping at his because yours is "perfect." It's all about personal preference.

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SteKrz wrote:

I don't like ground slam that much, i was leapslamming arround on my stun mara (at least while soloing) but if GS - only with AoE gem. http://i.imgur.com/9ZcM2Oj.jpg

Yeah, the radius stat isn't quite as powerful as it ought to be, on the support gem or especially on the stat tree. IMO you oughta be able to get a slam to reach the entire length of the screen for 10-14 skill points and a support gem.

The coverage in a slam is still greater than an LMP spectral throw - there aren't any gaps at range. It just turns off and kills everything in a wedge in one go. That it works with Melee Physical Damage and Physical Damage on Full life (and Endurance charge on Stun if desired) is what really pushes it over the edge - 80% more damage (140% more than GMP), more stun threshold reduction, no gaps.

The Increased Critical Damage support is so vital for projectile attack damage currently. Maybe someday we can get some alternative support gems..

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post your own build on the forums instead of ripping at his because yours is "perfect."

It's called sharing EXP and observations. Occasionally opinion. Nobody's "ripping" on anything. This is what we call normal human interaction.

It'll be okay. Here's an image of a kitten.

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it means that they don't get any chance to attack, so there's no threat or "insurance" needed

lolwat

"no insurance needed"
/takes massive amounts of raw Armour%
/leaves thread for tacos