Masters remove crafted mod

Same here, lv 6 would be a good compromise, it requires serious investment but is still accessible.
And that's usually when you start to need to optimize your gear for high level.

An alternative would be to make the removal always available for zero cost (which it basically has right now anyway), but, let's say, triple the crafting costs. This makes binge rerolling somewhat more expensive, and personally I feel that the costs are very low as is anyway.
For example getting a random additonal property costs 1 ex, and getting a "targeted" one that way costs many ex, but getting a fairly good targeted resistance roll for example costs only 1/15th of an ex.
IMO it wouldn't cost too much at 1/5th ex, especially since the complementary part of crafting - sockets/links - are not so extremely cheaper at masters than when rolling manually (on the contrary, they are even more expensive).

Having removal at lvl 8 seems like a game design disconnect.

Another option would be to have removal starting from the lowest craft-enabling level and make it cost a certain amount of Orbs of Scouring, which would give those an actual use besides directly upgrading to regrets. The amount could be scaled: for example 3 * mod lvl, so 6 scourings to remove the lowest tier mods and 24 for the highest, which scales nicely with player progression (correlating wealth ~ play hours ~ master lvl).

bump for more support, and hopefully a GGG response one day....................

Imo removing mods (=eternal) is for perfecting gear. There is no reason to perfect mediocre gear and it would be as well a waste of currency.


On the other hand, there is also no reason to make crafting a no brainer and let people add and remove mods on mediocre items as oftenly as they want. One bad side effect would as well be less utility of several other items that you can find or trade for.



Example:

Lets say you find a 1200 armour shield with good stats for example. You add a 2nd resistance mod as this is what you need. Later on you wanna replace this res with the other res.

What you now gotta do is:
a) think carefully which mod to add to your shield
b) later on if you need another mod on a shield you need to
b1) buy or find a new shield and possibly again think carefully what mod to add
b2) sell your old shield
c) possibly use a lesser item than the one you got as you can add this newly required mod on it

What you then gotta do:
a) not
b) not
c) not




I personally as well would like to have everything available instantly sometimes. But then I start to understand that it does not help the game at all to have immediately one item that you can just switch mods on for any purpose. It would make the game more boring, make new finds less important, make trading obsolete, make any sort of decisionmaking skill obsolete and so on. It is really enough to have this available at the very end. Maybe level 7 masters would be still doing that tho. As well the option to waste countless currency on a single low item is something that some players need to be prevented from doing for their own protection.


So after all, all you guys who want it available from level 1 on (or any other very low level of masters) don't know what you really are requesting. You don't understand that it would make the hunt for new items way more boring and shorten the lifespan of the game as well as the interaction. It would make you complain even more about "can't find any more upgrades" and in the end make PoE more a stupid/mindless grind. Therefore it's the hard reality that you all are chobos. Sorry to say so, but its the truth.

^ a load of nonsense.

I'm never gonna loot a equal or better belt than this:



and I'm certainly not gonna buy one similar, just because 'economuh is the most important thing in the game for us'.

So im stuck with the lowest possible elem. roll craft, until I have Tora at 8 -_- By which time I'll prob. play another league or loose interest in the char entirely... It wasnt my "bad judgement", I wisely chose exactly what I needed, it just rolled the shittiest value possible.

Ofc., I could insta-gratification buy removal service right now. 'Instant gratification is not cool, except when it is cool', heh heh... :))

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LSN wrote:

make trading obsolete

It would be actually very good, pity that will not happen here.

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LSN wrote:

Imo removing mods (=eternal) is for perfecting gear.

It is currently impossible to use mod removal for "perfecting" gear.
You can't remove top tier mods because you can't master-craft top tier mods, which are the only ones removable.
It's simply a whole different category and high-end crafters will still dump their hundreds of ex/eternal to perfect their items. Master crafting is the poor man's version (just look at the currency required compared to high-end crafting).

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LSN wrote:

There is no reason to perfect mediocre gear and it would be as well a waste of currency.

Since you can't perfect gear through masters, this statement is a non-sequiteur. I think every player can spend their currency as they see fit.

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LSN wrote:

On the other hand, there is also no reason to make crafting a no brainer and let people add and remove mods on mediocre items as oftenly as they want. One bad side effect would as well be less utility of several other items that you can find or trade for.

Simply ignoring the crafting system because you can't get a master to lvl 8 for a few months has nothing to do with being a no-brainer.
I have an item which I quite certainly won't get a better version of in the forseeable future (triple res 6L Spidersilk Robe). Why should I add the lvl 4 mod when in a week I'll get a higher tier at lvl 5, or a better one in 3 additional weeks at lvl 6, or then again in 5-6 more weeks at lvl 7?
So the best option, given that this is likely my final gear, is to pretend master crafting doesn't exist for months, just because mod removal isn't available before lvl 8.
Sure, if removal wasn't available at all, it would be very similar to corrupting an item. But why on earth should progressive upgrades be only available to extremely active players who don't need them anyway?

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LSN wrote:

Example:

[...]

You can't prove that a change isn't needed by bringing up one single scenario where it isn't needed, pointing to that while pretending that other cases (which there are plenty of in this thread) don't exist.

Besides, your example really doesn't help explaining why mod removal should be available only at lvl 8. Instead it does make a case for not being able to remove mods at all.

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LSN wrote:

I personally as well would like to have everything available instantly sometimes.

I don't. It usually spoils the fun ;)

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LSN wrote:

But then I start to understand that it does not help the game at all to have immediately one item that you can just switch mods on for any purpose. It would make the game more boring, make new finds less important, make trading obsolete, make any sort of decisionmaking skill obsolete and so on.

That's one huge slippery slope you're going down there. I'd even agree with it, if both crafting and removal had zero cost. But that's easy to solve, see for example two different proposals in my previous post (two above yours).

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LSN wrote:

[...] As well the option to waste countless currency on a single low item is something that some players need to be prevented from doing for their own protection.

Now that's a bit patronising...
Again, I think every player can spend their currency as they see fit.

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LSN wrote:

So after all, all you guys who want it available from level 1 on (or any other very low level of masters) don't know what you really are requesting. You don't understand that it would make the hunt for new items way more boring and shorten the lifespan of the game as well as the interaction. It would make you complain even more about "can't find any more upgrades" and in the end make PoE more a stupid/mindless grind. Therefore it's the hard reality that you all are chobos. Sorry to say so, but its the truth.

Lots of conclusions based on thin air, and the ad hominem there doesn't help your case at all.

But just to add a bit of actual data: since Forsaken Masters, I have started to look more closely at rares with only 4 mods.
Previously I simply vendored them, because I won't (probably ever) be able to binge exalt/eternal them, and spending tedious hours trying to get rid of them in trade channel (I'm not top 15k on ladder so xyz is a pain too), well no thanks.
Now I consider more carefully whether they could be useful when adding a masters mod, but then think of the above scenario (my Spidersilk Robe) and because of that scrap them anyway. So yes, the hunt for items would be less boring if mod removal were available earlier.

Well you can see that as you want but in my opinion in new leagues ppl do not need to instantly be able to max out master crafting mods on their items.

It would be boring and op if you just could instantly put maximized master values on all the gear that is worth it. Also I mentioned that the frustration about RNG would be increased with this too as one guy needs 5 attempts to e.g. hit 24% and the other 50 and is broke after. In the permanent leagues this problem soon wont exist anymore anyway.


Ppl were given cheap and predictable crafting methods and you should be happy about this. The ability to remove a mod from an item was not even in the game before and now it is. All this is not enough, now you all want to max out your mods instantly. lol



Most ppl with brain btw. know that eternals were damaging the game because it became too easy to craft perfect items. The ability of removing mods is representing the eternal orb of master crafting. The same will be true for master crafting as several values are close enough(24% wed on belt? 32% crit chance on amulets?) to the cap. Especially in new leagues it would suck big time if everyone could just instantly max out their gear like this.

Dropped items with mods that are below max master rolls would as well go more likely to the category of trash. If you could just add 24% WED to any belt in new leagues, every roll below this (e.g. the bracket with 20% max WED) will become worthless. Upgrades will be more difficult to find but everyone will sell 10 belts with 24% WED in his shop. Ppl would complain about shitty drops again while they fail to see that drops are always relative. I am repeating myself. I forgot that nothing counters your instant gratification needs, no matter how reasonable it is so it is as well senseless to discuss it with you. Ppl like you were the guys who complained about release D3 being too hard and 2 weeks later whined about the game being too easy and everything meaningless and boring. You gonna push PoE into the same direction with these kind of threads and you don't even realize that.


Removing mods from the beginning of new leagues is in no way required. The option being available alone is an absolute exception to the whole PoE crafting construct and therefore should keep some value.



I could possibly arrange myself with master 7, 6 would be instant availability (to those who take the time and farm master 2-3h once hitting map level in new leagues) and therefore not possible. But other than that imo the whole master grind should be a bit shorter than it is now in total and then you can as well keep it at 8.

I wanna add smth. that some probably don't undertand:

One time RNG is always fair. You get a number between 8-24 and you hit 8. Its fair.

When RNG becomes unfair and frustrating it is when you hit 10-20 times in a row only the lower bracket 8-16 which is rather unlikely and therefore considered being unfair. But exactly this is what fusings do, jewellers do, chaos orbs do etc. Now you want master crafting to be the same for you. I don't understand. Why can't you keep that belt for the day when you are able to remove the mod and therefore have some kind of long term objective in the game?

@LSN:
As I see it, you're arguing against the existence of mod removal (and eternals?). Both are actually changes I could get behind, but also off topic in this thread.
It seems both mod removal and eternals are here to stay, and the question is whether putting the former at master lvl 8 is a sensible game design decision. As shown by this thread, many people think otherwise.

I don't play in the new leagues (started in Anarchy, but now the league already finishing when I get to a3m makes me feel like Sisyphus), but even there, if you make master crafting+removal available earlier but a bit more expensive, people leveling (which means not having an abundance of currency) would have to make the questionable decision to dump dozens of chaos into getting 79% IPD instead of the, for example, initial 70%.
Personally I don't have any interest in maxing out the mods and don't consider this a big factor at all (sure, I could retry once or twice in case I get the min roll initially).

You make a point with master tiers capping off tiers on self-found items. But given that master tiers are below the possible maximum anyway, aren't such items worth very little anyway?
And more importantly, what's your opinion on the lower WED tiers masters offer? How do those fit into removal being at lvl 8?

And besides, your belittling of people who think differently from you is lowering the discussion. Quite a number people you disagree with seem to have put more thought and reason into this than you, and we can all discuss this normally like grown adults (heck, my kids will be able to play PoE in a few years and then you can have fun with them in terms of unreasonable/inexperienced demands and gratification).