Masters remove crafted mod

Nero makes a fair point chunda.

You are tackling this from the top of the market, understandable, but then your argument of stuff becoming cheaper becomes irrelevant since cost is not an issue for these players.

Like you said, AXN used 5000 exalted orbs on a wim. That's all good and fancy for him if he wants to craft something, now imagine it takes 2500 of his exalts to roll something similar to what he know spend 5000 exalts on, what exactly changed?

Did he get his item in both cases? probably yes since money is not a factor.

Another thing to note is that you are probably talking about standard? Which already has top mirror service gear, leaving little else to craft until the meta changes and when it does the new gear will be up in under a week. Irrelevant of price attached to them.

Maybe i am just not understanding your argument, since i only read this last page.

So correct me if i am wrong sir.

Peace,

-Boem-

Honestly, the master system with how requirements don't even exist if you have a friend that is level 8 is somewhat flawed.

You can argue all about how it doesn't matter and dismiss it but this is ridiculous in terms of game design.

There exists the most powerful crafting mechanism. And then there exists the most gated master requirements. The two must go hand in hand.

Everything in this game is bypassed by the community no mater what GGG do.

Friendship trumps all, tis a game of love this PoE.

Peace,

-Boem-

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Chundadragon wrote:

You completely ignore the high-end, believing that only the 95% matters.

Make that 99.9%, no? (that would be 100 people if there were only 100k accounts, and we already had more than that concurrently logged in... so the reality might possibly be even 99.99% or so)

The idea to allow removal of <8 mods before master lvl 8 has already been suggested twice before in this thread, apparently it would make people like you happy and also 99.9% of the player base. What we need is feedback from GGG.

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Chundadragon wrote:

[...] you need different level 8s to carry out the crafting process.

This is obvious from looking at the mods, but how is it even relevant? AXN and pretty much anybody like him (who can afford to binge craft) already has access to all lvl 8 masters. It's not gated for them, but it is for those people who are already gated by the amount of ex/eternal required anyway.

I'd say mod removal being on lvl 1 or lvl 8 is pretty much the same to the high end players, because they need (and have after 2-3 weeks) the required lvl 8 masters.

But more importantly, having it at lvl 8 heavily impedes the usefulness of the vast majority of all master mods (specifically: all except the highest tiers). It ignores the majority of the usefulness of mod removal, as shown by plenty of good examples in this thread so far.

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Chundadragon wrote:

There exists the most powerful crafting mechanism. And then there exists the most gated master requirements. The two must go hand in hand.

Doesn't matter if it's pretty much the same. It's good game design and I guarantee you this is why it's level 8.

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Chundadragon wrote:

Doesn't matter if it's pretty much the same. It's good game design and I guarantee you this is why it's level 8.

Roughly 10 pages back in this thread I made the claim that it's a game design mistake, backed up by reasoning and examples. So far, nobody in this thread has been able to reasonably justify mod removal at lvl 8, while quite a few people have brought arguments and good examples against it.

Your "guaranteeing" doesn't really count for much, sorry.
GGG is mute on it, I guess they realised the mistake, but from a developers point of view (as far as I get from conversing with PR in our company) it's important to not letting yourself get pressured into a change too obviously.

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foosis wrote:

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Chundadragon wrote:

Doesn't matter if it's pretty much the same. It's good game design and I guarantee you this is why it's level 8.

Roughly 10 pages back in this thread I made the claim that it's a game design mistake, backed up by reasoning and examples. So far, nobody in this thread has been able to reasonably justify mod removal at lvl 8, while quite a few people have brought arguments and good examples against it.

Your "guaranteeing" doesn't really count for much, sorry.
GGG is mute on it, I guess they realised the mistake, but from a developers point of view (as far as I get from conversing with PR in our company) it's important to not letting yourself get pressured into a change too obviously.

I've similarly backed it up with reasoning and examples, namely the ability to saves thousands of exalts on mirror-level crafts. If that doesn't sound juicy to you, I don't know what ever will.

For those that see the potential in the craft, it is very worth level 8. In fact it is worth level 20 if that existed. The requirements should be even more gated. There is zero other justification for it to be level 8 but that justification is very very strong.

You argue on convenience to new players, I argue on mirror-level crafting - a very different playing field and they really shouldn't follow the same rules.

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Chundadragon wrote:

Once again you have failed to meet the basic requirement to post - know what you're talking about.

You do not realise you need different level 8s to carry out the crafting process.

You do not realise that level 7 to 8 is more than 50% of the effort.

You completely ignore the high-end, believing that only the 95% matters.

You destroy your own argument, trivializing the requirement as if it was nothing - all the mean time arguing that is punishing.

You need many level 8. How does it matter?

Who does care if level 7 to 8 is 50% of the effort? The mods are accesible with the proper service, the issue is that you have to pay for something for no good reason. Let's not talk about self found.

It's not 5%, it's less than 0.1%.

Hint: right now is trivial, it just feels awful.

I won't change your mind, but people can read my argument and yours and decide. I have nothing more to add. Maybe later.

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Chundadragon wrote:

I've similarly backed it up with reasoning and examples, namely the ability to saves thousands of exalts on mirror-level crafts. If that doesn't sound juicy to you, I don't know what ever will.

For those that see the potential in the craft, it is very worth level 8. In fact it is worth level 20 if that existed. The requirements should be even more gated. There is zero other justification for it to be level 8 but that justification is very very strong.

You argue on convenience to new players, I argue on mirror-level crafting - a very different playing field and they really shouldn't follow the same rules.

Saving exalts means nothing in standard, exalts are dirt cheap for those who play there (your words).

I guess swaping resistances and other stats is not important compared to making life harder for people that have so much orbs.

I'm done with you. God saves us all.

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Chundadragon wrote:

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Chundadragon wrote:

There exists the most powerful crafting mechanism. And then there exists the most gated master requirements. The two must go hand in hand.

Doesn't matter if it's pretty much the same. It's good game design and I guarantee you this is why it's level 8.

its logic like this that brought shavrons wrappings screaming into this world. Rarity didnt stop that abomination from turning every low life build from weak to god teir over night.

ggg has a history of badly estimating the worth of things and their impact on the game as a whole.

to be frank non of the level 8 mods should exist , level 8 should just give access to the slightly better t3 mods and maybe a select few t2 mods.

and the ability to remove mods should have been a level 7 option, lord knows until recently level 7 masters gave nothing of value.

you cant balance shit like add as many master mods as you want. you cant , because rarity , cost value. all of that is immaterial to the rich and powerful

its the old saying, "if you have to ask, you cant afford it" well these people dont need to ask, because it doesn't matter to them. nothing you do, nothing ggg can do, double level 8 exp

move all of it to level 9 , none of that crap matters to those people , nothing.

they will always have access. always . And they will always use that fact to their personal gain regardless of the good intentions ggg might have had for it

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Chundadragon wrote:

I've similarly backed it up with reasoning and examples, namely the ability to saves thousands of exalts on mirror-level crafts. If that doesn't sound juicy to you, I don't know what ever will.

For those that see the potential in the craft, it is very worth level 8. In fact it is worth level 20 if that existed. The requirements should be even more gated. There is zero other justification for it to be level 8 but that justification is very very strong.

You argue on convenience to new players, I argue on mirror-level crafting - a very different playing field and they really shouldn't follow the same rules.

But didn't I deconstruct your reasoning in my first reply a few minutes ago? It does not make any practical difference in the ability to save thousands of exalts. How could it? Is there an example where a high end player is blocked by mod removal alone in his ability to craft? (binge master mod rerolling without other lvl 8 mods doesn't give you the highest tiers and is clearly weaker than using meta mods)

Having mod removal be even more gated is another question, for example if you had 1 removal for each Über Atziri kill. Still ignores the issue for 99.99% of the players, and why have it in the game at all if you'd like to gate it beyond practical reachability?

For the record, I'm not arguing for the convenience of "new" players. I've been playing over a year and my highest char is lvl 82. With my wife, kids, career etc. I think ~5 hours of play per week is reasonable. Having to wait 3-4 more months to improve my master mod tiers (or having to ignore all the lower ones, which I hope you agree is a problem) is weak game design.

I do argue that the particular positioning of mod removal doesn't matter for mirror-level crafting, while you seem to ignore (maybe an imputation on my side, but so far you haven't acknowledged this side) the usefulness for low-lvl and mid-lvl play.

edit: added bolded part