End Game / Atlas Suggestion for Optional Slower, Tactical Combat (like early campaign)

First off, let me say that I do enjoy the current design; its fun. I don't have any problem with how things are currently set up. However, I do think that the current design limits build variety quite a bit, and since we're still in late alpha / early beta, I believe that this is the time to have this discussion.

I think it would be interesting to have options available that allow players to tailor End Game Maps to be more like the early campaign, where enemies are fewer and more tactical gameplay is available; something that embraces the Souls-like gameplay that the early game does so well.

For example, adding a new branch on the Atlas Tree that reduces (non-unique) enemy quantity. It could start with a node that converts all sources of increased pack size to reduced pack size. This would affect all other nodes on the tree, as well as from map mods and other sources. This would NOT affect the number of packs, just the number of enemies per pack. Behind this could be a few nodes that increase the health, damage, and XP of non-unique enemies, as well as a few Increased Quantity of Items nodes. With the proper nodes, this should slow down the pace of combat a bit, while also granting a bit more XP and Items so that these characters don't fall too far behind the other crowd (they inevitably will, there's no way a character like this should be able to keep up with characters that clear screens at a time, but this should keep the XP bar moving and give them a better chance at finding some decent loot).

EDIT: I should note: This branch would be a one-way section on the tree and would not curve around and be accessible from the back.

Then I would pair with this with the addition of one or two Leagues that would be more tailored towards this slower-paced, tactical combat. For example, there are a number of PoE1 Leagues that would fit this concept: Anarchy, Bestiary, Nemesis, Talisman, and Tempest come to mind. Now, let me be clear, I am NOT requesting these League-specific items or these League mechanics specifically, just that these kinds of mechanics would pair very well with a slower-paced experience that's closer to what we see in the campaign. Some of these only add a single enemy to the map, while others simply buff existing enemies.

For example, you could combine Anarchy, Bestiary, and Nemesis into a single League Tree that adds unique enemies and encounters to maps. These would hopefully be similar to boss fights, rather than just glorified Rares, but that's just personal preference. ;) One branch could focus on Exiles, another on rare and corrupted Beasts, and a third on other-dimensional Nemeses, some nodes unlocking a new "tier" of encounters, while others may increase the chance of an additional encounter per Map. You could even have a starting node here that enables additional abilities on many (non-unique) enemies such as powerful debuffs, having more shielded enemies reflect ranged attacks, and even auras that reduce area damage, to make this truly more tactical and souls-like. To unlock this tree, you would defeat these unique enemies on Maps that drop a macguffin that leads to the Hall of the Grandmasters where you face off against a number of one-on-one encounters, leading up to a new Boss fight.

I think having options that allow maps to be more campaign-like would really open up a much wider variety of builds that work really well with a slower, more tactical approach to combat, but don't work very well in the current end-game. And to me, more build variety = more replayability.


So, what are some concerns with this idea?

1) This could have some odd balancing issues.

I think that there could be some outlier enemies that might need to be fine-tuned a bit once you start increasing their health, damage, and/or resistances. I think you'd also need to put a floor on the quantity of monsters in a pack, since you probably don't want any packs with less than say, 5 enemies. Additionally, while this should not affect unique enemies in any way, it could have unintended side effects with adds during a Boss fight, for example.


2) How would you start mapping with a character like this if you cannot unlock the 1st Atlas Node until after you complete 10 maps?

I think the simplest solution would be to add a vendor with a crafting material that applies something like "50% reduced enemy pack size, Enemies have 25% more health and deal 25% more damage" to your Waystones.


3) What about existing League mechanics on Maps?

Ritual and Expedition should probably be fine, Delirium might be a bit iffy, while Breach would definitely suffer the most. However, if the player is choosing to have smaller packs of enemies, then they should not be surprised if its a slow burn on Breach progression.


4) Could this negatively impact the existing end-game experience?

Ideally, this would be a purely optional way to play and should not affect the existing experience for anyone who wants to continue with the existing end game design. In fact, adding these other Leagues would add additional content for everyone, though some of these Leagues could be as dangerous to screen clearers as a screen full of enemies would be to a single target character.


Thoughts? Feedback? Other concerns?

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I think it would be interesting to have options available that allow players to tailor End Game Maps to be more like the early campaign, where enemies are fewer and more tactical gameplay is available; something that embraces the Souls-like gameplay that the early game does so well.

This is an interesting solution... Though given the expectation setup of the campaign, it might be better if this were inverted, and the Atlas started out more like the campaign, and nodes could used to (optionally) make the atlas into the zoom-zoom-blast poe1 clone it is today.... or alternatively, the other direction would lean *increasingly* into the tough tactical combat that had many of us finally enjoying the POE franchise until it fell apart in endgame.


----> this way to souls like combat where we need to use multiple skills
<---- this way to poe1 zoom zoom one button blasting

However, I think skills themselves would also need adjustment, as currently the builds start out doing more damage with multiple skills and combos, but then end up merging into these one button aoe-fests that actually do *more* damage with a single skill.

For example, Sorc starts out using things like damage boosts for casting multiple elements and for having multiple ailments on enemies, while using other skills to CC/hold-back enemies.. and then ends up switching to cast-on crit/shock (often both) and getting way *more* damage out of pushing 1-2 buttons to insta-pop entire screens - by speccing all those passive tree points out of multi-element combo supporting stuff and into crit and burst and shock.

Same with Monk.. starts out using melee+evasion+ES on tougher mobs, while using medium range AOE on weaker packs that can swarm.... and then ends up just using one skill to clear entire screens that does 100x as much dmg by running both heralds and tying it to one damage ability. This also happens by moving passive points towards crit, which supports a single damage type going exponential.

For any of this "souls tactical endgame" to exist, the passive tree (and/or skills) need to be adjusted to be better at *something* in the endgame, currently combos just fall off.

Good idea. Support this!

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KuroSF#6521 wrote:

This is an interesting solution... Though given the expectation setup of the campaign, it might be better if this were inverted, and the Atlas started out more like the campaign, and nodes could used to (optionally) make the atlas into the zoom-zoom-blast poe1 clone it is today.... or alternatively, the other direction would lean *increasingly* into the tough tactical combat that had many of us finally enjoying the POE franchise until it fell apart in endgame.

This is a good point.

Ideally, they could add a small intro to Maps, in which the first map is exactly like the campaign in terms of monster density, and upon completion you get your first Atlas point. Then the player can choose:

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KuroSF#6521 wrote:

----> this way to souls like combat where we need to use multiple skills
<---- this way to poe1 zoom zoom one button blasting

Then you make sure the Zoom Leagues (Delirium and Breach) are on the left side of the tree, the Leagues that can work on either side (Ritual and Expedition) are on the top of the tree, then two new leagues for the tactical combat (Anarchy/Nemesis) are on the right side of the tree.

"

KuroSF#6521 wrote:

However, I think skills themselves would also need adjustment, as currently the builds start out doing more damage with multiple skills and combos, but then end up merging into these one button aoe-fests that actually do *more* damage with a single skill.

For any of this "souls tactical endgame" to exist, the passive tree (and/or skills) need to be adjusted to be better at *something* in the endgame, currently combos just fall off.

They need to do a ton of balancing no matter what. :) But yes, they'd need to really think about how skill and supports interact, and they'd need to make sure that many more single-target and support abilities (not gems) are able to continue to be useful; because as is, once you hit maps its almost like half the skill gems become irrelevant. Really, its like the game has two design teams, campaign and maps, and they didn't communicate very well.

But, because there are so many people that really enjoy the campaign combat, and there are so many people that like the zoomer content, and because end game is still in such an early state, I think designing it to work for both play styles would be hugely beneficial. Especially since there really aren't any ARPGs that embrace a more Souls-like experience like PoE2's early campaign, and none of them have a Souls-like end game; that's an untapped market.

+1000000 and only boss map without minions or just 2-3 rooms of minions and boss without any complicity.

Instead of the 4-pronged Atlas Tree, you rotate the bottom left to the left, and the bottom right to the bottom, then add a new section to the right. The first node would be a Notable:

Campaigner: All instances of Increased Pack Size are converted to Reduced Pack Size.

This should keep pack size to no more than 7 or 8 enemies, and I would put a hard floor for most packs to be no fewer than 5 enemies; some enemies are always 1 or 2 enemies, and I would keep them as such.

This Notable would branch off to two nodes, each granting increased damage and health of all non-unique enemies. Each of these would then lead into two separate clusters. One would focus on increased non-unique enemy health, damage, and XP, and the other one would focus on increased non-unique enemy health, damage, and Item Quantity. Both of these clusters should allow characters that go this route to still have a decent amount of XP and drops. I could see adding in an a node or two that grant increased Pack Quantity (so, more packs with less enemies, so that maps aren't so barren, but this may not be needed if GGG can balance out pack placement on maps). These clusters would then lead back into a single Notable:

Challenger of Wraeclast: Non-unique enemies gain new, powerful offensive and defensive abilities.

This should greatly increase the challenge of each encounter, granting a number of random abilities to certain enemy types. For example, enemies with a Shield may get Resonating Shield, Shield Charge, or even Reflect Projectile (same as Eternal Knights), while enemies with a Bow may get Escape Shot, Electrocuting Arrow, or a Mark (these are just some examples). All enemies would also gain a stackable Defensive Aura buff that reduces the amount of damage taken from AoEs, so the more enemies that are near each other the less damage they receive from AoEs. If you've got a small pack of 5 enemies, it might reduce AoE damage by 25%, a little challenging but not too bad; but the more enemies you have, the greater the reduction is (no cap). (You'd also need to figure something out for Minions to balance them out a bit.) This is meant to both add more of a challenge to each group of enemies, as well as prevent back-dooring into these clusters of increased XP and Item Qty.

This Notable would then lead into a third cluster dealing with either Tempest, Torment, or Warbands (any of which could be an interesting addition to maps), which would be accessible from the outer path, allowing these characters to branch North towards Essences, Tablets, and Pack Qty, or South towards Waystones and Rarity.

Two new Leagues could then be added that are more tailored towards this play style, but could still be accessible by all characters. Again, I'm not aiming to bring back any of the items and mechanics of these Leagues (that's GGG's decision), just that these Leagues all deal with similar themes and could easily be combined into something new and interesting. (names pending LOL)

Confrontation: This would combine Anarchy, Invasion, and Bestiary. Focused primarily on adding powerful new unique enemies, these would be mini-bosses of sorts, dropping a new MacGuffin that grant access to the Challenger's Arena, which then grants you access to the Confrontation tree. The Challenger's Arena is a gladiatorial arena with Exiles in the stands and large gates on the side. Once the challenge begins, one of the gates opens to release a corrupted Beast, or an other-worldly Invader portals in, or an Exile jumps down from the stands into the Arena, and the player fights through 5 of these (all random every time) to complete the challenge and gain Renown. Complete enough of these Arenas and gain enough Renown to enter the Hall of the Grandmaster. This tree is all about duels and adding mini-bosses to areas.

Bloodlines: This would combine Bloodlines, Nemesis, and Talisman. Focused primarily on buffing non-unique enemies and adding additional challenging encounters. These would drop a new MacGuffin that lets you challenge Rigwald, the Wolven King in his new Lair of the Wolven King map (I'd love to see him brought back with PoE 2 Boss mechanics), allowing access to the Bloodlines tree. This tree is about making more challenging Magic and Rare packs.

i certainly don't want a game that makes you fall in love in the first three acts and then reveals that it catfished you once you get to maps. slower combat or a second end game campaign option would be great. have a wizard send us to a multiverse portal to do another campaign line, or something.

i dont know lore that great. i know there was a worm. i know im an exile. is there like a angel or demon of time like the god of sin? We could have a demon of time that is trying to change the results of the campaign, and we go back in time to stop him, but he used his demon powers to perverse all the monsters and bosses, changing their styles and mechanics, making the old campaign feel anew, increasing its difficulty. I think players that crave this content would forgo the benefits of league mechanics, to continue gaining basic loot and exp with the slow combat. then players would also have options for when we get bored with one type of content