Turtle Charm breaking additive rules of Shield Block AND breaking Offensive Stance / Lay Siege

80+% base block (capped to 75%), apply Turtle Charm - now 50%. But my shield base cap is locked to 40% by Renly's Training and I cannot raise it by using a higher shield value. So that reduction from the over-capped amount should be 40*0.65 but NOT A NEW BASE RATE of 26% FROM THE END LIKE ALL YOUR OTHER ADDITIONS, WHERE DID THIS NUMBER COME FROM?

Because you're a) ignoring the base overcapped level (75*0.65 = 49, so a bit of rounding)

BECAUSE, OF COURSE YOU DID, YOU JUST MADE ALL THE %block nodes not add 40*1.05(-40) or 40*1.1(-40) additively but 26*1.05. OF COURSE YOU DID.

OR WORSE, YOU SLAPPED A -35% FLAT RATE ON IT. Can I tell? OC I can't because the tool tips are useless.

No, you applied a flat % calc on the end of an entire passive tree of bonuses. So not only can I not raise this number, every single node I've taken on block is also reduced by 35%.

But there's MORE:

It ALSO reduces the %add damage from Offensive Stance *and* Lay Siege by the full amount, rendering them useless. So instead of them counting *actual* Block Total, for a not very large amount of ADDITIVE %phys damage, it's using the new end total of 50%. BECAUSE OF COURSE YOU DID.

You can't have this both ways: either you make both work additively at the same point in the calculations as all the other modifications (i.e. you don't RESET BASE LEVEL, you take 35% of 40 off the end number) or I assume you're either trolling or massively incompetent. Either the passive nodes all work additively from a base or they don't.

One thing you have managed to do is make any non Giant's Blood "mace n board" EVEN LESS viable on an Ascension path DEDICATED TO Sword&Board.

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I just cannot fathom the utter incompetency here.

Turtle Charm is a less multiplier, so it's multiplicative with your chance to block.

If your chance to block is 75% (i.e. capped) then with Turtle Charm your block chance will be 75% x 0.65 = 48.75%

You don't take Turtle Charm if you plan on using things like Offensive Stance or Lay Siege. It's solely for you to get the "block slams and area effects" effect without being restricted to a single unique.

So this isn't a bug really. It's valid feedback but it's working as written.

"

taggedjc#2661 wrote:

Turtle Charm is a less multiplier, so it's multiplicative with your chance to block.

If your chance to block is 75% (i.e. capped) then with Turtle Charm your block chance will be 75% x 0.65 = 48.75%

You don't take Turtle Charm if you plan on using things like Offensive Stance or Lay Siege. It's solely for you to get the "block slams and area effects" effect without being restricted to a single unique.

So this isn't a bug really. It's valid feedback but it's working as written.

No, it says "Less". "Less" is not the opposite of "multiplier". Less is a SUBTRACTION.

But even then, it's applying it incorrectly, as I explained.


A) It shouldn't even be *looking* at added % phys calcs let alone effecting them; the fact applying it immediately dropped DPS reporting on Gems tells me two things: a) I don't trust either to being calculated correctly because I'm having to run BOTH to get a non Giant's Blood build to do any damage and b) it is applying it to the BASE RATE that is used for other calculations. IT SHOULDN'T DO THIS.

B) It's setting a base rate reduction. Meaning, BECAUSE THIS NUMBER IS SEEMINGLY CAPPED, you cannot get back to 75. You know, even if there were the nodes to do it. (I cba to explain why, but trust me. Also there's not enough nodes by a long hard mile, even if the pathetic and measly 1% %phys / block was any good, which it isn't - we're literally talking a rounding error for a Monk or Sorc build by a factor of THREE decimal places).

C) The Base rate is FIXED at 40%. You can't raise it, even using a shield with 50+% block. Work out how the two are related and then work out how it devalues the ENTIRE POINT of passives here. Because your block BASE RATE is now FIXED to 26% instead. AND YOU CANNOT CHANGE THIS.

So why would you even bother using a high block shield? And not one WITH ES ON IT.

Oh, because

d) All the shield skills use ARMOR value (NOT effected by any shield defense bonus, because of course not) to determine their damage bonuses. Which are not great btw. We're talking +276-368 ADDITIVELY on ilvl 75+ shields with >700 armor which compared to Monks DPS is just slightly underwhelming. Given people have DPS numbers in the 350k+ ranges *without* exploits.


So, effectively, you've not added value, you've reduced the overall effectiveness of shields across the board with none of the benefits that skills like Acrobat enjoy.

Because Evasion isn't locked to TINY PASSIVE NODES ON THE SKILL TREE, YOU CAN GET 2.5k ON A SINGLE PIECE OF ARMOR. Literally balancing two comparable effects with one requiring massive passive tree investment with no mod pool support versus a number that can easily get upward of 50k.

~


It's just screamingly incompetent.

TL;DR

35% reduction on top of a 40% cap is a larger hit than 70% of no cap.(30% vrs 26%). And Evasion gets oodles of nodes and, most importantly, very very generous bonuses on gear mods.


It's crazy pants someone thought they should be modelled in a similar fashion.

Long story short, less is actually the opposite of more in terms of PoE. The substractive modifier is called reduced, which pairs up with its additive counterpart, increased.

Since Renly's fixes shield's block chance to 40 from whatever it is, you'd need around 117(roughly ~187% increased) uncapped block chance to even out at 75 with 35% less modifier from Turtle charm. Seeing how you're already stretching from Offensive Stance to Lay siege, there's more nodes further south-east from Lay siege, so you can actually get that many.

Regarding the loss of gem dps - it's actually plain. To come up with the bonus damage based on block, you first need the final value of you character's block. So naturally, the less block modifier comes into play in determining that, no surprise that bonus damage falls down the stairs since block chance itself is also lower.

Renly's charm doesnt actually devalue the shield. It plays the less-block chancey shields higher than they normally are - some are 20-26 BC without rolled blocks, thats a lot of improvement for those.

"

wurro#1715 wrote:

Long story short, less is actually the opposite of more in terms of PoE. The substractive modifier is called reduced, which pairs up with its additive counterpart, increased.

Since Renly's fixes shield's block chance to 40 from whatever it is, you'd need around 117(roughly ~187% increased) uncapped block chance to even out at 75 with 35% less modifier from Turtle charm. Seeing how you're already stretching from Offensive Stance to Lay siege, there's more nodes further south-east from Lay siege, so you can actually get that many.

Regarding the loss of gem dps - it's actually plain. To come up with the bonus damage based on block, you first need the final value of you character's block. So naturally, the less block modifier comes into play in determining that, no surprise that bonus damage falls down the stairs since block chance itself is also lower.

Renly's charm doesnt actually devalue the shield. It plays the less-block chancey shields higher than they normally are - some are 20-26 BC without rolled blocks, thats a lot of improvement for those.

Thanks for telling me nothing I didn't already know.

The actual comparison here is what the minimum number of passive nodes required to reach 75% cap with Acrobat vrs Turtle Charm, since they are functionally identical.

Even at a cursorary glance, it can be achieved with notably (20+) fewer EV passive nodes, without even counting the connecting stat passive nodes, and more importantly, without the weight of an Ascendency (4 points) behind it.

Secondly to this, taking Acrobat in no way negatively interacts with any other EV interactions that I am aware of. Feel free to point out a passive node I might have missed that is conditional to end state dodge chance that it has a negative interaction with. Turtle charm has two entire classes (+%phys damage, %attack damage and also actual item Block % stats). An accurate comparison would be if Acrobat read: "40% base chance (unmodifiable) and then 35% of worn Evasion stat applied to this" and then that total was converted into Dodge Rate).

This is largely due to the passive nodes (5% etc) being applied to 26% base. This is not the case for Evasion as the total is taken, unmodified, from gear etc and then reduced. i.e. every 5% is 2%, whereas in the case of Evasion an identical flat total threshold determines the Dodge chance. e.g. 100,000 becomes 30,000 which is then 75% (for example, these are not direct numbers).

These two percentages are not even being made "less" in the same manner, to the detriment of Block. This goes for Jewels (20% EV is easy to get, 7% block is the highest available amount) and again, these are applied in a different manner. You get 20% of 100% then reduced by 70%, the 7% is applied to 26% then reduced once more at the end of the calculation.


To make that simpler, Acrobat forces Evasion to overcap by flat number (not %) which is then converted from a number via a flat threshold to a percent Dodge chance (e.g. 30k EV = 75% Dodge, 100k EV + Acrobat = 75% Dodge) but Block is applying these reductions to the direct outcome. There is no "Block Weight: 2500" available on gear or modified - it is already capped at 100 (with an artificial 25 on top, cut off at the end).


It's utter garbage design and if this is how it is supposed to be working, it has been designed badly.

Well, some of the wording came of your original post came through as if you were surprised, so I took it up to clarify less+more and increased+reduced. Also, you brought in Acrobatics only at the end of a follow-up post.
The Turtle charm seems to be a "pay for convenience", because nothing genreally stops the player from not picking it up and using a keybind to actively block with far less passive investment. I'll agree to the discrepancy between block and evasion, but in light of this topic's name and subforum, all the interactions between Renly's, Turtle, and block chances - as foggy as they might be in the perception of some players - do not seem bugged at all.

edit since while typing this you added a couple paragraphs:
Acrobatics actually bite you if you take it too soon and your EV isn't high enough by lowering your dodge chance.

"

the 7% is applied to 26% then reduced once more at the end of the calculation.

This doesn't sound correct. For all intents and purposes, most of the things are calculated as base*(1+total increased% and reduced%)*multiplicatives(those are less and more, each an additional multiplication). So assuming 150% inc block chance and both ascendancies you wind up at:
40*(1+1.5)*0.65 < which is equivalent to > 26*(1+1.5)
Both of those calcs end up at 65.
The double reduction you mentioned shouldn't really take place, unless you got a dataset that reflects block chances with various %incs to prove us wrong - not an attack on your persona, just that I ain't got a warbringer to check that.

Honestly regardless of the maths the fact someones saying "theres more nodes that way..." do you know how gimped your character becomes if you're using half your fricking passive points in block chance? You do 0 damage, if you do no damage you can't map, if you can't map, delete the game theres no hope.

The fact of the matter is that passive path needs a big rework - 40 bonus on a 26 is great, 40 capping a 45-50 down to 40, not great. Having to add 25-35 points into your tree just to get to then select passive nodes to hopefully max your block out detracts from so much game play its not funny.

Warbringer is really not shown much love compared to titan, Jade is bugged, 10% phys reduction is junk because 98% of monsters use elemental aspects of some kind so it's down to resistances (as tons are raging in other threads)

- remove jade and replace with something good
- fix the shield, can block all attacks but minus 5% off the 40 cap or just change it fully.
- add something that gives real DPS, totem bro's arent even playing warbringer from what I've seen they're going titan or gemling to stack lol so that nodes also worthless.