POE2 made me realize that HARDCORE community exists because POE2 didnt

for years i've always looked up to the hardcore community because they are "by default" the elite gamers.

they play properly and ONE DEATH is all it takes to reset DAYS or MONTHS of progress.

one of my friends is a hardcore andy. he explained how in diablolikes, if you dont play hardcore, then playing the game is meaningless. you dont feel any weight of your actions.

a good example is how i cleared the feared. i dont NEED to carefully pay attention to all the enemy attacks. i just melt them ASAP. if i die, well i have a 6 portal defence.

this does highlight what my friend mentioned about how the game becomes "meaningless". at a certain point all you're doing is go in blast maps. if you die, just get back in, get annoyed with any xp loss and move on.

its a few steps away from playing idle games. you dont engage with mechanics because you dont need to.

all diablolikes before poe2 is the same.

poe2 kinda changed that somewhat. its a blend in between hardcore and softcore where you're not TOO PUNISHED for dying but regardless players are FORCED to play more carefully.

everything has weight.

i would even go on to say that the gap between hardcore and softcore is finally becoming smaller.

i still respect hardcore players in poe2 but i see them in a new light. previously their existence hung around the predicament of diablo likes not having weight. deaths are meaningless. poe2 forces players of both sides to git gud and actively engage in combat.

but with that respect i do feel that if you play poe2 on hardcore because you like it, there is some level of sadomasochism involved.

even my "NEVER NOT HARDCORE" player is currently playing in standard now.

i do however feel that if ggg balanced the game more, he would reroll on HC.

all the power to you HC lovers.

Thanks, but losing a map or 10% exp has nothing to do with hardcore.
its not even remotely close. I understand what you mean, but...you just dont lose anything.

ANyway, hope you come with us someday 100% man, you could really enjoy it :D

The most fun in a new videogame is always play in hardcore, at least until you beat the campaign, and blind. There will be time later to play standard, or party, etc. But those first times totally blind and fearing dead with each new boss, noew zone..., oh man, they are fantastic everytime a new arpg comes out. Those feelings wont ever be replicated, no matter if you play 2000 hours. You only get that first chance :)

I appreciated reading this. It's a rare twist of events I'm hoping GGG listens to the SC crowd for poe 2 for feedback. Real power is to you for not having the giant ego like us, that's got to be nice, you can just play and have fun with slight annoyance on death. I remember in sc dying made me want to delete the character right away anyway so I started up hc never looked back.

"

Valmar#3550 wrote:

Thanks, but losing a map or 10% exp has nothing to do with hardcore.
its not even remotely close. I understand what you mean, but...you just dont lose anything.

ANyway, hope you come with us someday 100% man, you could really enjoy it :D

The most fun in a new videogame is always play in hardcore, at least until you beat the campaign, and blind. There will be time later to play standard, or party, etc. But those first times totally blind and fearing dead with each new boss, noew zone..., oh man, they are fantastic everytime a new arpg comes out. Those feelings wont ever be replicated, no matter if you play 2000 hours. You only get that first chance :)

you know what? if GGG really puts enough effort into balancing the game properly I actually DO want to go hardcore but only once i've learned all i need to learn.

poe2 is a very eye opening experience. i played the game practically SSF through out the entire campaign. i was slamming exalts on decent gear with disregard. but once i was mapping and kept failing to get upgrades i relied on trade. damn. its so bloody efficient to just save up and trade.

everything depends on GGG. if they can make poe2 currency/drops good enough that i dont feel like i need to trade, i will go SSF.

similarly if i'm sure the game is much more balanced that i dont get one shotted by a random non telegraphed attack AND if i have a way to "panic logout" from the game if i KNOW i m going to die if i dont. then yeah i definitely want to play HC.

i do know that auto logout macros exist and i do know that in many parts its frowned but i m getting old. if i die because of my mistake, thats on me. but if i know i have no where to run and have no counterplay for a certain circumstance, i d reason to myself that my character realized this and pussied out of the place.

until then i m gonna just play as best i can in path2 sc.

"

benzman9001#5398 wrote:

I appreciated reading this. It's a rare twist of events I'm hoping GGG listens to the SC crowd for poe 2 for feedback. Real power is to you for not having the giant ego like us, that's got to be nice, you can just play and have fun with slight annoyance on death. I remember in sc dying made me want to delete the character right away anyway so I started up hc never looked back.

thanks for the kind words. its nice to be appreciated.

depending on mood sometimes i do this too in temp leagues.
if i die "too early" i ll be so annoyed at myself i'd just reroll a new toon.

dupe post pls delete

I agree with the spirit of this post but probably disagree that its approached some kind of happy medium. I always pitched HC lite as a good mode to have in PoE1 where they just limit portals/reset bosses and 2 is definitely showing that has mileage for creating the same stimuli. Still it messy right now.

They might iron it out though with some tighter balance but to be completely honest i'm expecting it to get worse not better, there are already warning signs for dubious design absolutely everywhere.

PoE1 is pretty exceptional as a HC experience though so if you feel like making the trip i'd recommend giving it a go in PoE1 and actually committing it really has a great deal of magic to it.

"

Draegnarrr#2823 wrote:

I agree with the spirit of this post but probably disagree that its approached some kind of happy medium. I always pitched HC lite as a good mode to have in PoE1 where they just limit portals/reset bosses and 2 is definitely showing that has mileage for creating the same stimuli. Still it messy right now.

They might iron it out though with some tighter balance but to be completely honest i'm expecting it to get worse not better, there are already warning signs for dubious design absolutely everywhere.

PoE1 is pretty exceptional as a HC experience though so if you feel like making the trip i'd recommend giving it a go in PoE1 and actually committing it really has a great deal of magic to it.

with no disrespect to poe1, i believe if i ever go hc, it would be in poe2.

the main reason being, to play hc requires you to be very efficient with how you build your character.

poe2 currently has many over performing skills/builds, but from my understanding its not what ggg wants.

i may be wrong. but in any case i really like the idea of using player skill to "not die" rather than exploit mechanics in order to safe guard my character's life in poe1.

quin made an immortal zdps build that could withstand maven memory games. it really is amazing what players can do, buildwise in poe1.

but to me that feels more of puzzle solving rather than actual in game player skill. the player overcame the puzzle by simply having high enough numbers that trivializes content.

i cant do memory game coz my memory is fucked. and i panic. i cant do bullet hells in poe1 coz its too fast and my reaction is bad.

interestingly i do much better in poe2 where things are telegraphed. with the exception of external influences such as ultimatum detriments or sanctum afflictions, i do exceptionally well (based on my standards) in poe2 fighting bosses where i avoid everything. the times i die. in most cases i dont feel its cheap. its my fault. i saw the attack coming but i got greedy. the death is on me.

i love this playstyle where i need to be active and my actions matter. poe1 is in a state that to use actual player skill, you need godlike reflexes. i really dont see myself dodging any bullet hell phases in poe1. in poe1 theres practically 2 ways to deal with obstacles which are to nukem before they become a threat, or build defenses enough that it trivializes damage.

if i ever were to go poe1 hc, i would just build defences and go for an immortal build. for sure its still possible for me to die but once a player gets to a certain point, it trivializes the entire concept of "hardcore" in poe1.

imho poe1's ship has sailed. too many people enjoy it the way it is. i m happy for them and perhaps even to you, but after tasting poe2 i have no interest in poe1 anymore.

That isn't going to last in PoE2, for HC to thrive its very important that you can outskill an encounter or you can outgear it - both are key.

if its only skill you shutout all the players that have any kind of issue with specific content, most players actually suck at bossing but those that don't get a leg up to thrive with this.

If its only gear the content becomes naturally exclusive and this kills diversity, PoE1 has a few of these left and its part of why T17s/Ubers are so divisive. They are too messy with too many modifiers to skill, even the best players overgear them to ensure an acceptable safety margin.

You might think PoE2 has both of these but its all skill or skip right now, and by skip i mean giga dps then barely know the fight. Its a struggle to make a well rounded character where you can engage with boss content for an extended period of time which is important to learning the mechanics in the first place.

Basically i'm a tried and true HC player and PoE2 doesn't do it for me right now, it has all the frustrations of HC without the actual excitement i'm not on the edge of my seat because it doesn't really matter if I die to content, instead what it means is i have to shell out and buy another boss entry or spend 200 hours farming one.

that isn't exciting its tedious and isn't really the HC lite i'd be looking for. To bring it in line boss entry would have to be vastly more common but they'd need to remove all the bypasses we currently use to not actually do the fights to bring the failure rate back to acceptable values. Its also too unfinished to actually play real HC right now though i salute everyone whose willing to put up with the bugs to improve the experience in the future.

Only my opinion though obviously! Its good to read that GGG got the zone right for somebody else and its striking a good balance for you.

"

Draegnarrr#2823 wrote:

That isn't going to last in PoE2, for HC to thrive its very important that you can outskill an encounter or you can outgear it - both are key.

if its only skill you shutout all the players that have any kind of issue with specific content, most players actually suck at bossing but those that don't get a leg up to thrive with this.

If its only gear the content becomes naturally exclusive and this kills diversity, PoE1 has a few of these left and its part of why T17s/Ubers are so divisive. They are too messy with too many modifiers to skill, even the best players overgear them to ensure an acceptable safety margin.

You might think PoE2 has both of these but its all skill or skip right now, and by skip i mean giga dps then barely know the fight. Its a struggle to make a well rounded character where you can engage with boss content for an extended period of time which is important to learning the mechanics in the first place.

Basically i'm a tried and true HC player and PoE2 doesn't do it for me right now, it has all the frustrations of HC without the actual excitement i'm not on the edge of my seat because it doesn't really matter if I die to content, instead what it means is i have to shell out and buy another boss entry or spend 200 hours farming one.

that isn't exciting its tedious and isn't really the HC lite i'd be looking for. To bring it in line boss entry would have to be vastly more common but they'd need to remove all the bypasses we currently use to not actually do the fights to bring the failure rate back to acceptable values. Its also too unfinished to actually play real HC right now though i salute everyone whose willing to put up with the bugs to improve the experience in the future.

Only my opinion though obviously! Its good to read that GGG got the zone right for somebody else and its striking a good balance for you.

i like the idea of having to strike a balance between both skill and gearing.

players are expected to take certain hits and recover the damage, while also avoiding larger hits which are obvious.

tho that said, i do agree if its purely skill we get the issue that we have with maven. i cant do maven because of memory game. at the very base of poe2 if a player knows their skill is insufficient there needs to be a way to punish their mistakes but not to the point of outright killing them.

even in poe1 many people have voiced out similar ideas. such as memory game causing you to lose a huge chunk of life but not killing you but could inflict a stacking debuff that increases damage taken, or reduce your damage etc.

i also agree with you on the gearing extreme. and i'm unfortunately one of the "persons affected". to me the pinnacle of poe1 skill based playstyle belongs to one dude who killed uber shaper/elder while being under level 30???

it took longer but he could do it.

for me a "perfect" arpg gives players to either outgear or outskill encounters. poe1's end game heavily leans towards outgearing.

personally i feel that players should be REWARDED for having good gear/good builds by making encounters finish faster (more dps means faster clear) or have an easier time (less damage taken/high recovery allows more mistakes).

in poe1, good gearing AND builds are REQUIRED. the absolute minimum.

there lies a huge chunk of issue i have with poe1.

poe2 is by far not perfect, theres still a lot of balancing required. theres still a lot of bullshit such as one uber boss doing a charged attack that you have to avoid and IMMEDIATELY run into a "safe circle" with less then a seconds margin of error.

but i do see the potential of poe2 being in a place i like, more than poe1.

i really dont envy GGG's team coming back from the holidays. lol

good post