"Conversion" and "Gain as Extra"

Hello fellow gamers and developers,

I have a little question regarding damage conversion and gain as extra.

The official Poe2wiki states the following:
- "Damage conversion is calculated after combining any sources of additional damage to base damage, but before any damage modifiers (e.g. increased or more damage)." This one here is were it becomes interesting, because in my testing this might be wrong, the wording is not clear or the order is unlogical (at least to me).
Right now it seems that "additional damage" and "gain as extra" are two very different types of damage. But then, what is "additional damage" in the first place in regards to spells?
Edit: one source so far is flamewall but there are no mods on weapons or rings.

Example:
- You use the unique ring "Call of the Brotherhood" which says "100% of lightning damage converted to cold damage"
- You deal 1000 lightning damage with the spell ark.
- You have "gain 20% of damage as extra lightning damage" on and only on your staff.

At the end, without CotB you deal 1200 lightning damage. With CotB you should deal 1200 cold damage. but ingame, and with my observations, you deal 1000 cold damage and 200 lightning damage. This means that the extra damage from the "gain as extra" is not converted, or in other words is calculated after the conversion from the item. Similar behaviour can be found with archmage.

This now begs the question of calculation order and if this is intended or not.
Right now it seems to me that the order is the following:

Base damage --> Conversion --> Gain as extra --> Damage modifiers (like increases/more damage)

What i think makes more sense would be the following:

Base damage --> Gain as extra --> Conversion --> Damage modifiers

In this way you would, in case case at least, only deal one damage type which you then can scale (to nirvana hopefully)

Hey @Guck_weg#4936
Did you manage to figure out if this is intended behaviour or if there's a better explanation as to why is it like this?
I'm also having the same results as you with damage as extra not being converted.

They made it very that the order is additive, conversion, multiplicative.
Plain and simple.
Conversion is before anything with a %, entirely intentional.

"Gain as extra" is a %. It's a damage modifier, not a damage add.
So it's not Base damage --> Conversion --> Gain as extra --> Damage modifiers as you wrote,
it's just Base damage --> Conversion --> Damage modifiers (because Gain as extra is one of them)

"

it's just Base damage --> Conversion --> Damage modifiers (because Gain as extra is one of them)

That is not in line with nor the wiki nor in-game tooltip, which state that damage gain as extra is part of the conversion.

Poe 2 Wiki:
https://www.poe2wiki.net/wiki/Conversion#Mechanics

In-game tooltip:
https://ibb.co/S7rnVbZ

"

Redcamus#1687 wrote:

Did you manage to figure out if this is intended behaviour or if there's a better explanation as to why is it like this?
I'm also having the same results as you with damage as extra not being converted.

The reason is because, as the in-game tooltip states "Gain as" happens at the same time as "Converts". There is no order between them. Both are calculated based on the same damage numbers. You can consider "Gain as" as being like a special type of conversion that doesn't remove the base damage.

To illustrate it like the OP did, it would look like this:
Base damage --> Conversion inherent to skill --> Gain as extra & Conversion (neither takes precedence) --> Damage modifiers



For all cases in the game right now, you can treat it as though "Gain as" occurs after "Converts" and get the same results. But that might not be true in the future.

As far as I can tell, the only "Gain as" that is based off a type of damage instead of all damage is a unique quiver, Beyond Reach, that has "Gain % of Physical Damage as extra Chaos Damage". However, I also couldn't find anything (aside from inherent skill conversion) that would convert physical damage other than Avatar of Fire, which would remove the extra Chaos damage anyways.



In the OP's example using Arc and Call of the Brotherhood: if they want to deal only Cold damage, they should use a staff with "Gain % of damage as extra Cold damage" instead of "as extra Lightning damage".