We NEED more content like T17, it is time for T18

"

Ulsarek wrote:

Forums and Reddit are still just that, a vocal minority in no way or form representative of the playerbase at large. That's an actual fact and not some anecdote to back up an online argument. The actual majority is busy playing the game and after they're done for the league, they're doing something else until next time.

Thats the same majority that don´t make it through the story in a season. They have probably a lot to tell us about T17s.

"

Pizzarugi wrote:

No.

T17s were a mistake to begin with. GGG rightfully got rid of magic find, they shouldn't have immediately replaced it with a new map tier printing as much currency as the removed mechanic, but is now gated exclusively to players already rich.

"But what about players who are bored with T16 maps?"

Nerf their builds. They want to struggle, they can stop using mirror builds trivializing the game and if they're unwilling to do it willingly, then GGG needs to step in.

T17s actually robbed players of interesting league reworks.

syndicate content could be reworked and have the final boss be pinnacle/uber catrina. etc.

BUT i would say god damn they are really interesting fights, which could be reworked later.

as for GGG getting rid of magic find. i still think MF plays a HUGE role in the game.

i've bitched about settlers gold all thru out the league. i've been playing mostly t16 alc and run and not follow the ritual strategy. i get a measly 5-10k gold per map.

when i started juicing up, the gold amount went up to 20-50k map.

then now, i've saved up a lot of t17s. i juiced them up. holy moly. just randomly killing stuff i get a buttload of gold.

i actually found it disgusting. the difference between different atlas strats, t16-t17s, juiced/non juiced. its fucking huge.

in just a few t17s i had enough gold to cover my entire day's expenses, which is a far cry from running 20-30 t16s.

that said, i have the experience from both "weaker" and "stronger" player POV.

i really HATE that the gap is this huge. the league was balanced around the higher tier players.

why i hate it is, its GGG's way of saying. hey guys, play efficiently or dont bother playing at all. coz seriously, if you dont play efficient builds, you cant do more juiced content. and if you cant do juiced content, you get pitiful gold. the game really felt like work to me all the while i did t16s but i was hooked on the sunken cost fallacy. I CANT STOP NOW (meme of guy turning around from mining a diamond/gold deposit).

as for T18.

even tho i like MORE content. as someone who has a perspective of a weaker player i would rather have more content geared towards weaker players.

if T18 existed, players need to be more efficient with their builds (as if the requirement to be efficient isnt enough as is). the gap between players would grow wider.

who benefits the most? of course the top players.

as much as i "always" like giving players choices. i will be selfish for the sake of weaker players and say that the existence of t18s will be detrimental for most players.

i also find it ironic that people who usually like harder content dislike it when ggg gives players more power. as tho they want to gatekeep all the hard content to themselves.

"

exsea wrote:

even tho i like MORE content. as someone who has a perspective of a weaker player i would rather have more content geared towards weaker players.

Ironically enough we do have more content aimed at weaker players than something for the higher end.
T1-t16, pinnacle boss fights, heist, blight and the list goes on as content became widely accessible for "weaker" players with the never ending new introduced player power with each league.
Like for example long ago shaper and such things or even t16 used to be endgame, now it's something that you can slap on any meme build with day 3 ssf ground loot shoelace gear. Latest boss fights like eater and exarch are not any different in this term as they already suffered to the strong power creep back to their original release date.


Meanwhile harder content exists just as juiced t16 (somewhat??), already watered down t17 that you can run late week 1 to early 2 ssf without hard trying, simulacrum and Ubers. So yea it's about time to introduce more content targeted towards more stronger and well optimized characters.
I wouldn't even be mad if they did introduce Uber Uber content as a playground for all those players with mirror tier gear.

"

if T18 existed, players need to be more efficient with their builds (as if the requirement to be efficient isnt enough as is). the gap between players would grow wider.

Well that's the point of it to encourage players to improve their builds and not be stuck on week one gear forever or run around on week 2 14k ES as example and expect to perform as amazing as someone with twice as much ES and a lot better gear overall.
Such thing as a "gap" also doesn't really exist and it's just a made up fomo problem to compare your progress with other players progress.

"

Pashid wrote:

Well that's the point of it to encourage players to improve their builds and not be stuck on week one gear forever or run around on week 2 14k ES as example and expect to perform as amazing as someone with twice as much ES and a lot better gear overall.
Such thing as a "gap" also doesn't really exist and it's just a made up fomo problem to compare your progress with other players progress.

i agree with what you mentioned about that "weaker players have tons that they can do" as is.

just that in settlers gold is really needed to enjoy it properly. the gap exists and is especially apparent in settlers where your enjoyment comes primarily from your ability to generate enough gold.

if we step back a little, back in sanctum if you could run t14 sanctums you're good to go, you could even net yourself an original sin just from t14s and you didnt even need to juice up.

in settlers, running t16s unjuiced could net as little as 3-5k gold/map. if you juice it up, it goes to 10-50k. thats a huge jump. and hence why i mention theres a gap. maybe you're right and i may have used the wrong term. perhaps a very SHARP incline could be better.

can you enjoy settlers by doing lower tier content. entirely possible. but since i have had a taste of how its like earning 50-100k gold per map. i cant help but pity the people who arent at that level.

i still feel that the jump/incline between juiced and unjuiced is just ridiculously high. i am enjoying settlers a HUGE lot better now that i have more gold. i have gold to last me for a few days now and i even had spare to reroll for new hires.

compared to back when i was struggling to "keep the lights on".

in a way i really HATE that settlers caters too much to the top percenters. i feel in retrospect if i had known this was the case i would have avoided settlers entirely. its really fun at the top but in before you reach that threshold it really feels like you're stuck in an infinite constipation of trying to shit out gold but its never enough.

to me i love the idea of players doing their own thing. making their own build. whenever you mention things like "player improving their builds", POE's content currently pushes the player to be hyper optimized or to run meta builds. if you try your own thing theres a very high degree of error where you simply cannot perform.

personally i see that games that let me "complete" the game with something players cook up themselves as something good. we're totally playing the game.

following a build guide is you "being played" by the game rather than the other way round. but with so many pitfalls and the requirement to be hyper efficient, it kinda forces players to narrow down their choices a huge lot. its why i like monster hunter where you can "make your own build" via armor choice/weapon choice etc and supplement it with skill. but for POE it gone past that stage. hyper optimization is a must.

for sure the argument is "well the game already has been designed that way" which is true. i cant argue with that. i can mention how i dont like it and i really doubt anything will change at this point.

GGG appears to be happy with where things are at. a good indicator is uber pinnacles themselves. they originally were designed as aspirational content. totally optional. but with the existence of t17s and with them being introduced as "a bridge to uber pinnacles" we can see the direction GGG is taking.

is it good? is it bad? i'd still say overall its good. just that i would prefer if ggg tempered the content back down so that "the average" dude can enjoy the game. the settlers vs sanctum is a real good way to highlight the difference between how soon players can start enjoying the league content. i can start "fully" enjoying sanctum at t14s. while settlers only starts becoming online once you got your t17 gold factories up and running.

"

exsea wrote:

i've bitched about settlers gold all thru out the league. i've been playing mostly t16 alc and run and not follow the ritual strategy. i get a measly 5-10k gold per map.

when i started juicing up, the gold amount went up to 20-50k map.

then now, i've saved up a lot of t17s. i juiced them up. holy moly. just randomly killing stuff i get a buttload of gold.

i actually found it disgusting. the difference between different atlas strats, t16-t17s, juiced/non juiced. its fucking huge.

in just a few t17s i had enough gold to cover my entire day's expenses, which is a far cry from running 20-30 t16s.

that said, i have the experience from both "weaker" and "stronger" player POV.

i really HATE that the gap is this huge. the league was balanced around the higher tier players.

why i hate it is, its GGG's way of saying. hey guys, play efficiently or dont bother playing at all. coz seriously, if you dont play efficient builds, you cant do more juiced content. and if you cant do juiced content, you get pitiful gold. the game really felt like work to me all the while i did t16s but i was hooked on the sunken cost fallacy. I CANT STOP NOW (meme of guy turning around from mining a diamond/gold deposit).

as for T18.

even tho i like MORE content. as someone who has a perspective of a weaker player i would rather have more content geared towards weaker players.

if T18 existed, players need to be more efficient with their builds (as if the requirement to be efficient isnt enough as is). the gap between players would grow wider.

who benefits the most? of course the top players.

as much as i "always" like giving players choices. i will be selfish for the sake of weaker players and say that the existence of t18s will be detrimental for most players.

i also find it ironic that people who usually like harder content dislike it when ggg gives players more power. as tho they want to gatekeep all the hard content to themselves.

Do you hear yourself? Do you even like POE?

You are complaining about the concept of character progression and currency/loot strategies. Why play a game built around these things if you don't enjoy them?


1. Of course there is a giant difference in loot/gold between alch n go and an optimized strategy.

2. GGG isnt making you play optimally. Everything in the game has a similar progression curve. It's not GGG's fault you don't understand this. Expecting to maintain a max level town with all of the services running, while refusing to engage in the progression required to sustain the gold cost is a problem entirely of your own making

3. Also of course, playing efficiently or for more hours = more rewards. Don't confuse FOMO with bad game design. If you want to be rich, do the things that make you rich. Unlike the real word, Wraeclast has no socioeconomic circumstances beyond your control that could prevent this. We all wake up naked on the same beach every league.

"

TayPoE wrote:

"

Ulsarek wrote:

Forums and Reddit are still just that, a vocal minority in no way or form representative of the playerbase at large. That's an actual fact and not some anecdote to back up an online argument. The actual majority is busy playing the game and after they're done for the league, they're doing something else until next time.

Thats the same majority that don´t make it through the story in a season. They have probably a lot to tell us about T17s.

Precisely. The kind of players that get build checked in early red maps already but somehow feel entitled to running T17s, then complain about balance even though they aren't ready for T16 yet.

"

Piousqd wrote:

Do you hear yourself? Do you even like POE?

lol a lot of ppl like poe but dont like where its currently at. i "quit" poe several times. returned in affliction because the addition of a sub ascendancy gave player power. i returned again in settlers because of melee buffs.

am i enjoying myself? yeap.

but do i find it disgusting the level of power a player has to have in order to fully enjoy the game?

also yes.

you calling me out does nothing. it doesnt change the fact that the game is largely inaccessible to most players. what is the point of playing the game if you cant actually enjoy the content made for players.

i mentioned sanctum where players could get the best rewards even at t14. you enjoy the league FASTER and with less investment. settlers? t16s arent enough. it needs to be juiced. and even t16s dont feel good enough, t17s are where the gold is significant enough to feel its enjoyable.

is it so difficult to see how different 2 leagues are? or do you just want everything to be tailored around builds that can do t17s?

coz you know what? thats where settlers is at and i m only here because of sunken cost fallacy. might as well play it out.

and when i m all done with this. i m out again. if the next league requires players to be strong enough to do t17s to enjoy new league content. i m out. and i think its a good time for me to see my self out the door if and when that happens.

i really dont need you to ask me a thing about the game. i know where the door is at and i have no qualms of seeing myself out. i have seen myself many times. i d rather not but one day i ll just not look back.

"

exsea wrote:

"

Piousqd wrote:

Do you hear yourself? Do you even like POE?

lol a lot of ppl like poe but dont like where its currently at. i "quit" poe several times. returned in affliction because the addition of a sub ascendancy gave player power. i returned again in settlers because of melee buffs.

am i enjoying myself? yeap.

but do i find it disgusting the level of power a player has to have in order to fully enjoy the game?

also yes.

you calling me out does nothing. it doesnt change the fact that the game is largely inaccessible to most players. what is the point of playing the game if you cant actually enjoy the content made for players.

i mentioned sanctum where players could get the best rewards even at t14. you enjoy the league FASTER and with less investment. settlers? t16s arent enough. it needs to be juiced. and even t16s dont feel good enough, t17s are where the gold is significant enough to feel its enjoyable.

is it so difficult to see how different 2 leagues are? or do you just want everything to be tailored around builds that can do t17s?

coz you know what? thats where settlers is at and i m only here because of sunken cost fallacy. might as well play it out.

and when i m all done with this. i m out again. if the next league requires players to be strong enough to do t17s to enjoy new league content. i m out. and i think its a good time for me to see my self out the door if and when that happens.

i really dont need you to ask me a thing about the game. i know where the door is at and i have no qualms of seeing myself out. i have seen myself many times. i d rather not but one day i ll just not look back.

I agree with pretty much all of this, I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand that having content made for the 0.1% isn't always a good thing. No point in having content that the majority of the playerbase can't even touch let alone enjoy. And then it's always gatekept by the people who can generate insane currency from it by saying things like "skill issue" or "fomo" as excuses for bad game design.

That's fine though, the game will slowly suffer because of things like t17s making players quit. Not only that, build diversity is gonna only decline more and more until there's like 2 or 3 builds that are the only good ones to run for maximum rewards even from a temporary league mechanic. That would be ridiculous but it's where the game is headed. Then people will realize build diversity is dead, but it's gonna be too late. It's already really bad with all the same checklists every single build has of: max res,suppression,phys damage taken to ele,block,30k evasion,30k armor etc. etc. Having to check all those boxes and have some big ehp numbers in pob significantly limits what builds you can play and how much fun you can have.

And this is in sc trade lol, soon enough the builds that are "viable" will be even less than those in hc somehow.

Nobody wants to do this, people just wanna login,do some fun maps and get the rewards that equal their time investment. There's a reason leagues like affliction,sentinel,breach etc. were so loved by the majority of the players. And I think the only reason most people enjoy this league is because the base game(aside from t17) is pretty good atm AND they added Faustus which is like the best feature added in the history of this game's development ever. Not only that but anyone has the chance to get mirror shards from this league mechanic, and the town building and upgrading feels rewarding at the start. But then you realize you need 385k gold a day to keep it running. If a league can reward you with raw divines or other great loot then a lot of people always love doing it. Kalandra is an opposite example, building the stone tablet for me was really fun but the rewards aside from the untainted paradise mobs were meh. Sanctum league was also really rewarding, it just suffered a bit from the whole "1 room per map" and you only being able to save 8 rooms but it was all fixed when it went core. People are still waiting for Sanctified Relics to go core, because that was a fun bit of player power and they all had really cool mods like +1 minimum charges. I also wouldn't mind if the wildwood ascendancies with the charms came back, but that's probably a bit too much or it would be nerfed so much that it would barely do anything.

"

Toforto wrote:

Nobody wants to do this, people just wanna login,do some fun maps and get the rewards that equal their time investment.

Hard disagree. First of all, who is this "Nobody" you're talking about - or since when is your opinion representative of this playerbase's majority? Hmmm?

Secondly, and most important, you already are rewarded equally to your time invested. Now this might be a wild concept for you to grasp but someone who invests more time, more currency into their builds or effort in general - that also includes picking a good build -, should by default be rewarded more than someone who, let's say, is hard stuck in T16's and quits the league once they bought into challenges.

If you can't or don't want to run T17's for whatever reason, you're not entitled to equal rewards. There's still T16 and below - it is called progression. The genre is built on that exact principle. Not being able to play at the highest level doesn't mean it's unfair to you.

"

Ulsarek wrote:

"

Toforto wrote:

Nobody wants to do this, people just wanna login,do some fun maps and get the rewards that equal their time investment.

Hard disagree. First of all, who is this "Nobody" you're talking about - or since when is your opinion representative of this playerbase's majority? Hmmm?

Secondly, and most important, you already are rewarded equally to your time invested. Now this might be a wild concept for you to grasp but someone who invests more time, more currency into their builds or effort in general - that also includes picking a good build -, should by default be rewarded more than someone who, let's say, is hard stuck in T16's and quits the league once they bought into challenges.

If you can't or don't want to run T17's for whatever reason, you're not entitled to equal rewards. There's still T16 and below - it is called progression. The genre is built on that exact principle. Not being able to play at the highest level doesn't mean it's unfair to you.

It's quite literally unfair that the 0.000001% that can farm mirrors in t17s get to have loot explosions while the rest of the playerbase is stuck doing less rewarding things. This is why t17s suck lol

The majority of the playerbase hates t17s. It's really that simple. These maps are not a "bridge to ubers", they are harder than uber bosses and have overtuned enemies and overtuned rewards that only a select few builds can even get. That's just bad.