Manaforged Arrow not working correctly.

Does anyone know how this skill is supposed to work. I've done some testing below and it's not mathing out right for me.

The skill on the wiki states: Supported Skills Trigger once total Mana Spent on other Bow Attacks exceeds 300% of their Mana Cost: tracks cumulative mana spent on all bow attack skills, including ballista totem skills, traps, and mines that use bow skills. "Their" refers to "Supported Skills", not "other Bow Attacks". That is, the threshold is 300% of the mana cost of each supported skill, not 300% of the mana cost of the other bow attacks.

However through testing it does NOT seem to work like this unless I'm getting my math wrong some how.

In this case my supported skill is frenzy and my 6 link (activator skill) is TS.

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Testing TS at 1 mana cost while Frenzy is at 5 mana cost it only activates every 18 shots. 1 * 18 = 18 mana spent, more than triple what frenzy cost. However if we look at frenzy's cost with out any reductions it would cost 24 (with power charge on hit and mana forged around linked), 20 with only mana forged arrow, and 10 without any without any linked supports. So it is either costing more than what it should or less than what it should.

TS = 1 mana
Frenzy = 10 mana
Frenzy + Mana forged = 20 mana
Frenzy + Mana forged + Power charge/crit = 24
(18 shots required to activate) = 18 mana

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Testing TS at 8 mana cost while Frenzy is at 13 is a little different but still off by a lot. It now takes 5 shots to activate. 8 * 5 = 40 mana spent.

TS = 8 mana
Frenzy = 10 mana
Frenzy + Mana forged = 20 mana
Frenzy + Mana forged + Power charge/crit = 24
(5 shots required to activate) = 40 mana

The first thing you're clearly misunderstanding is that it has nothing to do with the *base* cost.

I say you're "clearly misunderstanding" because you list a cost for Frenzy alone, and then a cost for "Frenzy + Manaforged"... but there's no possible way for the cost of Frenzy without Manaforged arrows to matter.

It cares about (and tracks) *actual* costs.

Let's say you've got a skill with a base cost of 10, and supports that multiply out to a 250% multiplier. It now costs 25. Then let's say you have a ring with the Elreon craft on it, with -7 to mana cost. Now it's 18. This 18 is what matters.

For both the mana spent by "other bow skills" and for the cost of the skill supported by manaforged arrows.

A slight addition to this is that any "leftover" mana is discarded, AFAIK. So your main skills costs 100, and your manaforged skill costs 50 (times three for the MF multiplier = trigger amount 150), then it will trigger, at most, on every other shot. The math might otherwise seem like it would trigger on 2/3s of shots, but I'm 99% confident it doesn't work that way.

The second thing you're likely missing is that skills supported by Manaforged Arrows gain a cooldown.

If you had infinite mana available, and your main skill cost a million mana per attack, and the skill supported by manaforged arrows was free, it would still not necessarily trigger on every attack.

So if you're testing by holding down the button and firing as fast as possible, the cooldown is very likely holding back the trigger.

Another possibility to consider is if you have any temporary buffs that modify skill costs. The most likely example is a flask with reduced mana cost of skills on it. But there are lots of other temporary buffs that reduce (or even increase) mana costs.

Finally there's the matter of the costs themselves. Manforged Arrows cares about *mana* spent, and *mana* cost. So if you use something that converts some or all of the cost of any of the skills to life or energy shields instead of mana, that will have a significant impact.

Additionally, you have to actually be able to pay the cost. Supposing the skill supported by manaforged arrows has a final cost of 30 mana, and when it triggers you only have 29 mana available, the trigger will fail.

The math still doesn't add up. If what you are saying is correct then when both skills cost 1 it should go off every 4th shot as 4>3 (which is 300% the cost) However if you go over the math I put above you'll see that no matter what it doesn't match up correctly.

Also in this testing I shot with about a 1 to 2 second pause between each shot to accurately count it and account for any possible cooldown. If the cooldown was the issue it would have a variation depending on how fast I shoot the activator skill however there is absolutely no variation at all.

This was also tested with all variations of the below and without any modifiers to mana.
-7 cost on both rings and with just one
-25% mana cost flask
(No reductions in tree for all testing, and no conversions used)

Finally this was done with more then enough mana (around 300) to account for a possibility of that causing a variation or issue.

Above I wrote in the basic costs as well as the linking costs to show that the testing was thorough in providing enough data to show that no matter how the math is done it will either cost less or more then what is required by the parameters of the support to activate but NEVER the correct amount. This leads me to believe that the support is not working as intended via the text description.

I feel like you've completely ignored the line on the gem where you have to spend 3x the cost.

So, for example you said:

"

Testing TS at 8 mana cost while Frenzy is at 13 is a little different but still off by a lot. It now takes 5 shots to activate. 8 * 5 = 40 mana spent.

13 * 3 = 39, so every 5th attack of an 8 mana skill is exactly correct.

In your other example:

"

Testing TS at 1 mana cost while Frenzy is at 5 mana cost it only activates every 18 shots.

While 18 is more than 15, it's not so much more that this can't be an effect of the cooldown.

You act like it's wildly wrong, but the one example is perfectly lined up with the expected value, while the other is only off by 20% in a fairly small sample size.

The line states "Supported Skills Trigger once total Mana Spent on other Bow Attacks exceeds 300% of their Mana Cost"

So it should be 8 * 5 = 13 for the text to be correct as frenzy is the supported skill and TS is the "other bow skill". But even if it was backwards it should activate on the 4th attack, not the 5th.

In the other example the cooldown wouldn't be in effect as I have tested with more than ample gaps between shots to allow any timed cooldown to not running.

Unless.... The cooldown for this specific skill has nothing to do with time frame and has it's own built in modifier that isn't specified. That's the only way I could see this making sense. But it still would only make sense if the wording for the text actually means the opposite of what it says in regards to "Supported Skills" and "other Bow Attacks"

In "300% of their mana cost" the "their" refers to supported skills.

If it referred to the triggering skill(s), it would always be 1 trigger every 3 attacks, no matter what (aside from temporary changes to mana costs).

The mana spent is counted across all bow skills that aren't supported by manaforged arrows, and amount required to trigger the manaforged arrows is based on the cost of the triggered skill, with the 3x multiplier.

Regarding that wouldn't you agree then that this support skill is NOT working as intended based off of your interpretation?

"

L1nqz wrote:

Regarding that wouldn't you agree then that this support skill is NOT working as intended based off of your interpretation?

No, I would not.

Even in your example, it's working exactly as expected.

Tornado Shot is the triggering skill.

Frenzy is the supported skill.

TS costs 8 mana.

Frenzy costs 13 mana.

300% of 13 is 39.

Spending 39 mana is required to trigger.

1 attack = 8 mana spent. Total is less than 39, no trigger.
2 attacks = 16 mana spent. Total is less than 39, no trigger.
3 attacks = 24 mana spent. Total is less than 39, no trigger.
4 attacks = 32 mana spent. Total is less than 39, no trigger.
5 attacks = 40 mana spent. Total is >= 39, so Frenzy triggers.

The total is reset to 0, and the cycle starts again.

As far the 1 point one... without actually trying to replicate your exact character in game, it's very difficult for me to say whether there's something a little off or not.

But 18 attacks vs the expected 15 is too close for me to say there's something wrong.