ES (with EB) is more superior than mana from design PoV

I mean, all you do with mana is reserve it all, get some reduce mana cost if needed and forget it exists. Well unless its unreserved mana build then something is going on there.

But when you have energy shield over mana, you dont care about reduced mana cost, you usually have somewhere between 150-2000 es maybe more, you get just enough es to keep casting for a while which means you can see this pool depleting and then you can take few seconds to get back up. Well, if you do have way more ES and its not shrinking from offensive skill usage then what you do is aura casting which consumes large quantities of ES (or less popular frost shield) and then some time later you can either cast another aura or save it up for later.

where im getting at is that ES over mana is a lot more dynamic than plain mana to the point that we might as well rename mana to "aura reservation pool" and es- "actual mana".

I agree, there are zero incentives to stack mana, mana regen, and mana recovery because reserving aura while having 10k mana vs 500 mana is the same. not to mention it's so much easier to get reservation efficiency than mana regen I don't know why. Plus, auras are insanely broken, it would actually be stupid to not use auras and additionally, mana builds should get some sort of compensation for not reserving mana.

EB works for some but not all builds. Not every build can fit a diadem or the keystone itself for multiple reasons. Some builds also use ES as defensive layer and not as a source to cast stuff. Mana leech and enough regen works just fine in many builds so I'm not sure what the purpose of this topic actually is cause EB is not really any superior than mana. It's just a decent alternative for some builds.


Besides that there are a few good MoM builds out there, and also a few builds with sublime vision where you don't want to reserve all of your mana at all.

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Besides that there are a few good MoM builds out there, and also a few builds with sublime vision where you don't want to reserve all of your mana at all.

can you link some decent Mom Builds? mana bond Heiro is the only mana build in this league that is decent and only because Mjolnir has no mana cost and this build doesn't even use MoM, this build is essentially a stat stacking build, any stat stacking build is strong by nature. Also, I don't see how a non-stat stacking archmage self-casted spell build can sustain 3k mana cost because it's really hard to find mana regen in the game and with the opportunity cost of not using auras which are absurdly powerful.

Yes, diadem and EB need a heavy nerf.

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Pashid wrote:

EB works for some but not all builds. Not every build can fit a diadem or the keystone itself for multiple reasons. Some builds also use ES as defensive layer and not as a source to cast stuff. Mana leech and enough regen works just fine in many builds so I'm not sure what the purpose of this topic actually is cause EB is not really any superior than mana. It's just a decent alternative for some builds.


Besides that there are a few good MoM builds out there, and also a few builds with sublime vision where you don't want to reserve all of your mana at all.

well, i created this thread more about on design and not power. With mana usually u end up with a build where u dont really care about mana levels in combat, and with ES you do which is a lot more fun (if thats the word) imo. But we can talk about power as well, its always interesting seeing what people think.

using auras with a big mana pool is a waste and auras are to good to sacrifice for what one can gain by using MOM or archmage.

items related to mana stacking could use a buff, things like manastorm have great potential but the numbers are not there.
For instance replace +(50-70) to maximum Mana with:
*+100 to maximum mana for every second you have not used a spell up to 5 seconds



Black Zenith could olso be reworked to have better sinergy with mana stacking say:

Socketed Spells deal 150% more Damage with Hits
Socketed Spells have +4 seconds to Cooldown
Socketed Spells have 100% more mana cost
socketed spells gain 1% more aoe for every 50 mana spent casting it
(140-180)% increased Energy Shield

introduce new mana related supports say:

aura catalist support
linked auras gain a flat +1% * level of this support to their base reservation
linked auras gain 1% increased effect for every 150 mana they reserve
linked auras gain 2% increased effect for every 150 life they reserve

note: the flat reservation increase is there so it can be used by skills with 0 reservation like smite or deaths oath, using smite as an example if supported by a lv 20 gem then the moment the aura is activated it will have a base reservation of 20% multiplied by other supports that affect it.

personally i havent used eb once since they changed it from converting es to mana to es protecting mana. ive never seen any reason to use it at all whe n theory crafting builds ive played.

i use either mana leech or mana regen or reduced cost of skills to fuel every build ive made since the change, occasionally backed up with an enduring mana flask.



its an interesting perspective that you are more conscious about managing it when its es. i do like a bit more of a conscious side to playing. that said if i dont see a power advantage in using eb then im not gonna do it, because its more costly, it involves a sacrifice so if theres no payoff for an investment that has reduced my power in other areas im not gonna do it. so far thats just meant ive never done it, because to me mana has always seemed superior from a investment vs reward pov.


i do like a bit more thought in playing the game so i can totally get along with someone giving it the props on that basis, but im gonna have to take ur word for it due to 0 actual experience using it.

EB functionally is a keystone that says you don't have ES but skills are free.

Is that too strong? Probably, I actually think its devouring diadem making it a problem (and weird sources of EB keystone) as its actually balanced by its location.

Its intended to either cost you some defence, pseudo MOM or cost you a significant number of passives. Devouring diadem bypasses all 3 because the mana reservation and +1 translate into defence in a majority of cases due to how strong auras actually are.

Thats before you get to the fact that EB itself will generally let you fit another aura in entirely. Basically its just a net bonus on most builds.

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Draegnarrr wrote:

EB functionally is a keystone that says you don't have ES but skills are free.

Is that too strong? Probably, I actually think its devouring diadem making it a problem (and weird sources of EB keystone) as its actually balanced by its location.

Its intended to either cost you some defence, pseudo MOM or cost you a significant number of passives. Devouring diadem bypasses all 3 because the mana reservation and +1 translate into defence in a majority of cases due to how strong auras actually are.

Thats before you get to the fact that EB itself will generally let you fit another aura in entirely. Basically its just a net bonus on most builds.

I think the proper nerf so they dont screw over builds that path to the keystone is to add another less recharge modifier to diadem.

So another 25% less recharge (or whatever number) into the already 50% less you get from the keystone means you need to invest in a little more ES or some recharge.