Acrobatics and Suppression Mastery

Hi GGG,

as I have always been a fan of damage avoidance, I would really like to utilize Acrobatics.
However I have some issues that probably also prevent many others from using it.
According to poe.ninja only ~1% of players use it. Which is quite low, compared to most other Keystones.
My biggest issue is that the extra feats from the Spell suppression notables have no impact:
- prevent +3% of suppressed spell damage
- recover 50 energy shield when you suppress spell damage

suggested solution:
- make them also apply to spell dodge (e.g. +3% to maximum chance to dodge spell hits)

Additionally the suppression masteries also don't apply. In particular the crit one is a high DPS boost for many builds, and there is no replacement when you pick Acrobatics.

suggested solution:
- either make dedicated spell dodge options on the mastery
- or make the existing ones also apply to spell dodge (e.g. crit chance is increased by chance to dodge spell hits)

Especially now, with 3.19, as you are reducing the amount of spell suppression we can get on gear, it might be even more difficult to acquire the neccessary 150%...

Thank you.

I honestly think the penalty (2 to 1 conversion) is too harsh for dodge given it is only spell and not also attack dodge. The only upside versus suppress right now is the fact that there are no map mods that can wreck it. But with how powerful suppress is at the moment, no one in their right mind would use acro instead.

Here https://youtu.be/Z0cDbLJ6UGs

I've tested 100% spell suppression vs 75% Spell Dodge on Sirus die beams.
Long story short, with 5k life and SS you die every time and with Spell Dodge you survive every time vs die beam.


150% Spell Suppression is easiest to reach with Dex stacking builds and Magebane keystone.

I think the issue is, Sirus's die beam is one very specific case where this is true due to its nature: The beam is a bazillion tiny hits so 75% dodge actually functions as SS that mitigates 75% instead of the 55% your SS character is mitigating. So there's no surprise there. Similarly, there is one specific corner case where high evasion is better than high armour--vs. porcupines. Even 20k evasion means you will survive a bunch of porcupines every time whereas 20k armour you would die every time. But does that mean evasion is better than armour?

The issue for dodge right now is that in every case where you are taking far fewer normal sized hits, the SS will have you surviving every time whereas the dodge will kill you on the hits you fail the dodge. If your character's goal is specifically to tank the die beam, I absolutely agree with you. But I think SS outweighs dodge when looking at the whole picture. The fact that 100% SS is far easier to reach than 75 dodge as well doesn't help this either.

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TemjinGold wrote:

I think the issue is, Sirus's die beam is one very specific case where this is true due to its nature: The beam is a bazillion tiny hits so 75% dodge actually functions as SS that mitigates 75% instead of the 55% your SS character is mitigating. So there's no surprise there. Similarly, there is one specific corner case where high evasion is better than high armour--vs. porcupines. Even 20k evasion means you will survive a bunch of porcupines every time whereas 20k armour you would die every time. But does that mean evasion is better than armour?

The issue for dodge right now is that in every case where you are taking far fewer normal sized hits, the SS will have you surviving every time whereas the dodge will kill you on the hits you fail the dodge. If your character's goal is specifically to tank the die beam, I absolutely agree with you. But I think SS outweighs dodge when looking at the whole picture. The fact that 100% SS is far easier to reach than 75 dodge as well doesn't help this either.

Depends on the scenario, but given that GGG for 75% Dodge requires 50% more investment, they prob regard it as superior.
The more density is in the map i would say Dodge takes the win.

I didnt't want to discuss which mechanic is superior. Just statistics wise dodge is better as it is 75% less damage vs 50% less of suppression. So it is perfectly reasonable that is has a higher cost to acquire.

IF you are confident you can survive one shots specifically, Acrobatics is better, especially against multispells like from packs or some bosses where it's mitigation is tending to 75% whereas suppression is capped at 50%. Why do people not take it? As you said, suppression masteries don't apply to it, it requires a larger investment so raider is naturally inclined towards it and, unlike evasion which is deterministic it has an inherent randomness to it, having a consistent mitigation like capped spell sup feels safer than a random one like dodge, an unlucky circumstance where you get hit by all spells anyway will sent you to softcore, probability and statistics dictate it is bound to happen when the number of spells hitting at the same time isnt very large. In softcore they probably want the free 100% crit

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TorsteinTheFallen wrote:

Here https://youtu.be/Z0cDbLJ6UGs

I've tested 100% spell suppression vs 75% Spell Dodge on Sirus die beams.
Long story short, with 5k life and SS you die every time and with Spell Dodge you survive every time vs die beam.

This isn't really true, if you died with 5k life to die beam with capped suppression you have a potato mitigation stat in there like uncapped resist or 0 phys reduction.

The values are known its ridiculously simple to model - lots of smalls dodge is best, mid hits up to 2x your life spell suppression is best, anything above that dodge is best.

However dodge is more expensive and less consistent, frankly there is no reason to use dodge unless you are regularly in the last category - so for example if you were a dedicated Uber Atziri farmer I could see spell dodge working out better for you.

Numerically spell dodge is superior mitigation which is probably why its more expensive, but reliable damage taken is drastically superior to spike damage taken due to recovery mechanics

tldr - spell suppression better in nearly all circumstances, few caveats for spell dodge. Also suppression is too cheap for what it provides that is a known factor I don't really think its that spell dodge is too expensive.

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Draegnarrr wrote:

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TorsteinTheFallen wrote:

Here https://youtu.be/Z0cDbLJ6UGs

I've tested 100% spell suppression vs 75% Spell Dodge on Sirus die beams.
Long story short, with 5k life and SS you die every time and with Spell Dodge you survive every time vs die beam.

This isn't really true, if you died with 5k life to die beam with capped suppression you have a potato mitigation stat in there like uncapped resist or 0 phys reduction.

The values are known its ridiculously simple to model - lots of smalls dodge is best, mid hits up to 2x your life spell suppression is best, anything above that dodge is best.

However dodge is more expensive and less consistent, frankly there is no reason to use dodge unless you are regularly in the last category - so for example if you were a dedicated Uber Atziri farmer I could see spell dodge working out better for you.

Numerically spell dodge is superior mitigation which is probably why its more expensive, but reliable damage taken is drastically superior to spike damage taken due to recovery mechanics

tldr - spell suppression better in nearly all circumstances, few caveats for spell dodge. Also suppression is too cheap for what it provides that is a known factor I don't really think its that spell dodge is too expensive.

There's nothing to be true or not.
It's strait one mechanic vs another without any extra stuff. Video is meant to show this particular encounter not make a verdict on this is bad/good mechanic in general.

There is always factor of situation. Something is not the best for every scenario in the game.
Numerically it's 75% increase in ehp vs 50% vs spells.
Ingame it's completely different things, one is damage avoidance and other is mitigation.

On the really high end of things lone mitigation can't hold up anymore and damage avoidance is preferable.
It's also not the same thing pushing (cautiously) to 100 on HC vs pushing deep Delve in SC.

Your example is what isn't really true because you've setup an atypical scenario to have the spell suppression character die when they honestly wouldn't. The logic is fine its the example I have beef with.

EHP is ridiculously abused in this game as well and was much better when players only used it as a measure of raw hp totals, ie life + ES + MoM. Its now become a meaningless statement where people parrot it at each other like having 500k means they are invincible yet they die every map.

The full interpretation is complicated requiring modelling with incoming hits, hit types, crit rates and recovery none of which anyone actually does they just click on things and shout the new numbers at each other like its top trumps.

Most of that isn't aimed at you btw I think there is a case to be made for spell dodge and more people overlook it than they shouldn't, but if they don't want to put any thought in its far easier to say spell suppressions best than to explain anything else :p