Some things that could be learned from D2R

Since it’s release I have been playing D2R for a few days after playing 3.15 for a few weeks and actually enjoying it.

I know there has been a lot of criticism of POE following 3.15 and I would really encourage people who have complained about it to give D2R a go, as for me at least it really provides a great perspective on things POE does well.

POE is smoother, much better user interface, more content and more stable. I know people have complained about too much clicking in POE but I have to stop D2R after a few days due to “mouse hand pain”. I say this as I just want to be clear that there are many things that I think POE does so well. FYI I did jump onto my old D2 account for an end game experience with insane gear on my old Enigma hammerdin so I am not just talking about early game.

That being said I do think there are some clear lessons for GGG to learn and I think I can see where Chris Wilson’s vision comes from now.

The first is loot. The loot in D2R feels like it means something. There is an excitement about getting a drop or a rune. This for me is because POE feels overwhelming in loot, there is so much it is impossible to care due to sensory overload. I genuinely think that dropping the volume of meaningless loot would help. For example reduce rates by an order of magnitude but eliminate tiers below 4. There would still be chase but rares would be rare but at least usable.

D2R does monster interaction well. I think this is because monsters generally do not one shot. They do offers no but you can react. Reduced monster damage and increased monster life may help. For me personally one shots are the key that kill interaction and need to be removed outside of bosses telegraphed attacks or structured fights.

Visual clarity - less is sometimes more! Knowing what is going really increases engagement.

Finally, target farming. D2R does target farming well. Either Baal runs or countess farming. You can still have world drops but a significantly higher chance (even if it is still insanely low) gives a sense of focus. For me it is this sense of focus that is missing in POE. I know it exists with div cards etc, however, I think it gets lost in the noise of everything else.

Just my thoughts and I am sure people will disagree, however, I am genuinely pleased that D2R was able to give me a new sense of perspective and I hope GGG have also used the old kid back on the block to influence the next league

GGG needs to make the difference between high end and "good enough" a whole lot closer together. The reason players aren't excited about "good enough" is that you can do so much better at the high end. It's not just a little better. It's 10x or more better. That's the problem.

If you trade, you just get those high end items much sooner.

The whole "the sky's the limit" philosophy on items needs to be dumped.

I am playing D2R right now with friends, waiting for next PoE season, and it does indeed put a lot of things in perspective, however, im not sure i agree on some of your points.

PoE's UI is stellar compared to D2R. This is actually a problem with D2R, in the name of "authentic experiece", VV did no modernization, like at all. No buffs, no debuffs etc. Clunky 2 button execution with no direct activation for the rest of the stuff. Feels like playing with one hand tied to your back.

The loot: I fully agree that more is not better, we get so much loot, its hard to understand what i see on the screen in PoE. With that being said, we do have custom filters. I just finished Nightmare with my friends in D2R, and some of the fights ended up with full screen of potions if i press alt, hard to see any white item that could be of value, and its getting worse because D2R has no filtering. Now add in the need for %MF and you see problems there with build limitations (which is very bad with the already very limited build options). And D2R does not have the kind of market PoE has. In my opinion, the loot system should not be compared without the active market. If we look at the gameplay only, D2R is better due to the loot being more valuable, however, the moment we step out of the gameplay boundaries, the presence of an active market shifts the picture in favor of PoE. It just feels less rewarding to farm (though this also speeds up focused farming).

One shots - While in general i agree that its less stuff that can kill you, the spikes in D2 are there too, and in general i find it worse than in PoE simply because you are not expecting it. Like me going int nightmare act3 Durance of Hate yesterday, and the first thing i met in melee was a bunch of stygian dolls that instakilled me. Or you walk through the hallway and at a corner you have a 3pack of moon lords literally jumping you because of fanaticism aura and you go down in half a second. There is no wide access to mobility skills, you cant just flamedash out. You just die. And the higher you go with difficulty, the worse it gets. Especially for melee characters, which further removes options from viable builds. This is a part that puts PoE into perspective for me, i have the tools for getting out of sticky situations so instakills are less likely if i pay attention, even if i have sub-par gear.

Visual clarity - I agree, PoE can be super hectic from time to time, not just bullet hell but your own skill effects. Its a lot less in D2R, but sometimes it is just as bad. Some maps have poor visibility, like the already mentioned Durance of Hate, Flayer Dungeon etc, and then there are those blasted Night Lords, templar council, zakarumite priests raining meteor, blizzard on you, or just fill the screen with hydra spam etc. Dung beetle lightning enchant anyone? Burning Soul lightning spam from the other side of the map?

Target farming - This is an activity i do not do, or not for long. It just messes with my sanity. Thank god for PoE having so much content that i do not have to resort to it, if i get bored by a single activity, i go do something else. Cant say there is much in D2 in that department.

^ well it looks like you agreed on most of his points which makes the majority of your post curious.

Secondly PoE UI isnt "stellar". Its acceptable at best.

And lastly on target farming / repeated play. For me, PoE does exactly the same thing but disguises it pretty well. Is doing a handful of maps like Atoll over and over again really better than a Baal or Diablo run? Delve and Heist isnt the same shit over and over?

And maybe you are not doing it right in D2R. You can do Meph, Pindle, Andy, Baal, Diablo, River and Chaos Sanc runs, Worldstone Runs, Countess, 85 Ilvl runs like Pits, AT, etc...

I cannot tell you how much different it feels knowing that while running Ancient Tunnels, any champion skeleton could drop a Tals Armor vs. Running a map in PoE hoping an exalt drops so you can buy something from a no-life crafter.

If anything D2R can learn some stuff from poe.

If PoE/GGG haven't learned something from D2 now, it'll never happen.

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^ well it looks like you agreed on most of his points which makes the majority of your post curious.

Secondly PoE UI isnt "stellar". Its acceptable at best.

And lastly on target farming / repeated play. For me, PoE does exactly the same thing but disguises it pretty well. Is doing a handful of maps like Atoll over and over again really better than a Baal or Diablo run? Delve and Heist isnt the same shit over and over?

And maybe you are not doing it right in D2R. You can do Meph, Pindle, Andy, Baal, Diablo, River and Chaos Sanc runs, Worldstone Runs, Countess, 85 Ilvl runs like Pits, AT, etc...

I cannot tell you how much different it feels knowing that while running Ancient Tunnels, any champion skeleton could drop a Tals Armor vs. Running a map in PoE hoping an exalt drops so you can buy something from a no-life crafter.

You need to re-read what i wrote.

Also, i didnt say PoE has a stellar UI, i said it has "stellar UI compared to D2R", which is not that difficult considering D2R has the UI of a game from 2002?

Tell me about this farming thing in D2R. I finished the game with my friends, then we started chaining the same stuff: Act1 Pit, Countess, Andy, Act2 Ancient tunnels, Act3 lower Kurast for super chests, Mephy, Diablo, Act5 Pindle, Baal. That we did in some 20 minutes. Thats the whole loop, theres literally nothing else. And after 3 days of solid 6+ hours of farming this loop, we ended up without a single Jah or Ber. We got good stuff, some good rares, good uniques, but the real juice came from gambling.

Compared to the above, in PoE i got gazillions of map events randomly spawning, getting me a guaranteed 4 conquerors and a Sirus in a reasonable time, while not counting the map drops themselves. Gets me an overlapping Maven. I got Delve to fuel me with really rare gear mods. Gets me heist to fuel my wallet with tons of currency. There is breach. There is legion, harvest, blight, champions etc. The sheer amount of stuff you can do dwarfs anything and everything D2 can offer.

While you are waiting in PoE for an ex to drop while mapping, im getting a guaranteed ex for 2 grand heists because of the sheer amount of stack decks i get. Do you have any other way to get that Tal Rasha's armor other than hoping that random skeleton will drop it?

There is one thing that always seems overlooked when it comes to loot in d2 vs poe, and maybe it is because people cant, or dont want to, put 2 and 2 together. Loot in d2 feels better because trade is incredibly cumbersome. Even if you are a jsp user its not even close. You cant just liquidate everything worth a pul rune without putting a lot of effort into it, so trading is restricted to very high end stuff, and you dont engage with it nearly as much as in poe (due to the severe limitations). Meanwhile in poe you constantly seek to liquidate every valuable drop you find that you arent gonna use yourself, and it is frankly quite easy despite what the AH crowd says

Just consider something like a rare ring, you are very likely to only find the rings you use yourself, because the exact ring you want is gonna be impossibly hard to find unless you are looking at the extreme top end stuff for pvp, where as in poe you can browse thousands of rare rings generated by the tens of thousands of players grinding and liquidating their drops. Of course its gonna be near impossible to drop a better ring than what you can easily pick up for 10c.

This is also very noticable if you do decide to play ssf. Suddenly upgrades are dropping left and right, and you can have a steady progression from drops into the very very late game.

Now consider what making trade automatic would do to the value of loot

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jewdas12 wrote:

Now consider what making trade automatic would do to the value of loot

Oh cmon PoE doeant have automatic trade either, and It's a terrible system as well.

And are you really going to say that loot is better in PoE? It's a shitshow. 99.9% of gear drops are worthless, even with loot filters.

Hell there is now a non-render option because the game is littered with shit everywhere.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

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jewdas12 wrote:

Now consider what making trade automatic would do to the value of loot

Oh cmon PoE doeant have automatic trade either, and It's a terrible system as well.

And are you really going to say that loot is better in PoE? It's a shitshow. 99.9% of gear drops are worthless, even with loot filters.

Hell there is now a non-render option because the game is littered with shit everywhere.

did you even read and understand what i wrote?

Let me make is easier to understand. Loot in poe is worse because its so easy to trade for better, in d2 it is not, because trade is beyond terrible