Does chill work on metamorphs, bosses, Sirus?

For the purpose of triggering the MORE damage vs chilled enemies from Hypothermia, does chill apply to metamoprhs, bosses,or Sirus even if I don't do enough damage ( .33% of enemy's life) to trigger the slowness effect? Ie is an enemy that is not slowed still considered chilled?

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Chills inflicted by hits last for 2 seconds. The magnitude of the slow is directly proportional to the damage relative to the target's maximum life, equal to 30% slow at 10% of the target's maximum life dealt by Cold damage, scaling down to 0% at no damage. Hits below the minimum threshold of 1% effect are discarded,[3] effectively requiring a hit of 0.33% enemy maximum life to chill that enemy. As an example, The Shaper has approximately 20 000 000 life. Minimally chilling The Shaper requires a single hit of 66 000 cold damage.

I'm trying to figure out if I should swap out Hypothermia for Inspiration on my 6L ice shot setup. T16 trash mob clear speed is fine, but I'm not sure if the chill effects are wasted on morphs/bosses and would be better off with the cyclical nature of inspiration's damage buff.

My gem setup is
Ice Shot
Elemental Damage with Attacks
Added Cold Damage
Cold Penetration
Hypothermia
Barrage Support

I want to stick with Barrage Support for now since it works well with single target damage and T16 clear is fine.

Would be great if someone can link to a source wiki, patch notes, ect... for chill's effect on bosses.

Here's my POB pastebin and pob.party share

I would love someone to answer this with the brain fudge of "inner chill threshold of sirus" As if things were not complicated enough to calculate/guess now there is the "inner threshold"

"Hey its easier!" is not really a good explanation.

I can answer your question for metamorphs tho. They can never be chilled nor frozen at the moment (this is probably unintentional since there is a note about it in bug reports - known issues)

On a side note, barrage support is terrible for skills that does not naturally fire multitudes of projectiles (like split arrow 9 at lvl 21, or power siphon)
the added "5% more attack time" completely kills your dps. You'd be better running a normal barrage for single target.

In any case inspiration is not that much cyclical as you'd think. You'll get to 5 charges in almost no time. And at level 20 it is up until you spend 800 mana which is like 45 casts of barrage.

https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Ailment

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Cold damage always inflicts chill. Chill slows all actions of the affected target up to 30%, based on the cold damage of the hit. The base duration is 2 seconds.

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A hit of damage also carries a property for each ailment that gives the hit a chance to inflict that ailment. By default, the chance to inflict most ailments is 0%. Any damaging hit has a 100% chance to inflict chill.[2] Critical strikes have a 100% chance to inflict ignite, freeze and shock. Some skill and support gems include modifiers that grant additional chance to inflict certain ailments. Additional chance to inflict ailments can also be gained from passive skills and equipment.

I am also looking for the answer to this.. I found these snippets though and I am going to have to assume that Sirus CAN be chilled. I cannot find anything online that contradicts this. It's funny how this kind of information isn't well known.

From my understanding, and as the quotes you provided say, if you do any cold damage, you will chill an enemy for 2 seconds. What the chill does however is dependent on the amount of damage you do. For example if you do 1 cold damage, you will chill the enemy for 2 seconds, slowing him by 0% because you did not meet the damage threshold for slows. This means that effects that require a chilled enemy will still happen, but the enemy will basically be at full attack speed.

I may be wrong, but I have looked into this several times and that is always the answer I find. Just dont use ele focus support (no ele effects).

Although Chill can chill up to 30%, it is actually quite outdated. It never chill more than 10% actually.

At the same time, most bosses are immune to chill as you will never do enough damage to chill. Or rather, GGG gives them immunity to chill by default.

Chill and Freeze is the weakest element.

Ignite is the best. Shock is also useless. You cant shock more than 20% most of the time while the mobs can shock you for 50% by default regardless of your damage taken.

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Festicle wrote:

[...] if you do 1 cold damage, you will chill the enemy for 2 seconds, slowing him by 0% because you did not meet the damage threshold for slows[...]

No, if 0% effect Shock and Chill was a thing, they would be WAY more useful.

Daegda are right and their snippets are correct. They are, however, missing a crucial part that is the minimum threshold.

Here is a snippet from Wikipedia's Chill:

(https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Chill)

"

The base duration of chill is 2 seconds and its effect is determined based on to the amount of Cold damage dealt relative to the enemy's ailment threshold. Chill's effect is capped at 30% reduced action speed. Chill's minimum effect is 5%; any chill of lesser effect than that is discarded. The effect of chill is calculated using the following formula:[3]

E = 1/2 * {D\T})^{0.4} * ( 1 + M )

where D is the cold damage dealt, T is the enemy's ailment threshold, and M is the sum of the attacker's increases to the effect of chill (normally 0%).

In the great majority of cases, a monster's ailment threshold is equal to its maximum life. It primarily differs for especially high-life monsters (such as The Shaper), where the threshold is reduced to allow ailments to be applied with hits that wouldn't ordinarily reach the required life thresholds.[4]

In other ways, this means "unless it's not specified or is a metamorph, everything can be chilled and every cold hit damage will apply chills. However you have to do a VERY high amount of Damage in one hit - not DPS - to make sure that chill will be ever applied to high-life enemies".

It's natural to feel confused about this, because Chill and Shock have changed their very mechanics twice: once in 3.0.0 and the last time in 3.9, which was a fusion of the original version (threshold-gated application, fixed effect) and the 3.0 version (fixed application, threshold-gated effect). And it took what I think was the worst outcome: threshold-gated application, threshold-gated effect

What 3.9 added was also this "Ailment Threshold", in order to help players to be able to actually proc chill&shock against high-life endgame bosses like Sirus, Shaper etc. GGG didn't, of course, officially declare what was this "reduced Ailment Threshold for bosses", so we have someone on Reddit try with A8 Sirus.

Their discoveries (https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/f00clz/ailment_threshold_numbers_revealed_25mil_shock/) was, in brief:

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If we add up two previous test we could conclude that 24.6mil < Sirus ailment threshold < 25.03mil. Which implies that Sirus ailment threshold ~25 mil.

So yeah, good luck delivering 25M damage in a single hit. Maybe using Ice Shot, which was specifically built to help chilling, may help even without resorting to expensive gear, but it won't totally help using a Barrage support in it - it will kill your single hit's DPS, though with Hypothermia it would make easier to freeze chilled enemies because of the rapid hits against chilled enemies it would provide.

In those cases, as in high-life bosses, you should resort on other ways of delivering chills and shocks. You may resort on shocked ground from a Vaal Lightning Trap, or chilled areas from an Arctic breath. Or, you can reserve some mana and call some skitterbots. All those are sources of chill and shocks that are always applied but at a fixed effect (unless differently stated, that effect is 10%)

P.S. : the "life as threshold for ailment to apply" mechanic is also used for stuns and freezings, though both of them can find a way to bypass it: Stun with the reduced stun threshold and skills that always stuns enemis, and Freeze with Hypothermia support

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Maxtrux wrote:

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Festicle wrote:

[...]

Their discoveries (https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/f00clz/ailment_threshold_numbers_revealed_25mil_shock/) was, in brief:

"

If we add up two previous test we could conclude that 24.6mil < Sirus ailment threshold < 25.03mil. Which implies that Sirus ailment threshold ~25 mil.

So yeah, good luck delivering 25M damage in a single hit....

You don't seem to understand their results. Basically they were able to shock Sirus by dealing 37,300 lightnng damage on crit but could not shock him dealing 36,700 lightning damage. From there using the formula for figuring out shock magnitude they could calculate his "ailment threshold" which is just a fancy term for their effective health when determining ailment values. These values are actually quite reachable for a build dedicated to lightning damage, or even a starforge cycloner which excels at tiny hits. Also "increased shock effect" would lower the required damage to deal a shock dramatically.

Lets look at how much damage you'd need to do to chill Sirus...

To reach the 5% threshold you need to deal 0.32% of their "ailment threshold" or health for non-bosses.

So 25,000,000 X 0.0032 = 80,000, if we then use rank 20 ice shot though...

80,000 = (damage dealt) X 2.95 X 1.19, solving for damage dealt... 22,789 required damage to chill Sirus with Ice shot. If you can't hit that hard you'll have bigger problems than your hypothermia support not working.

That's... right, sorry. 25M was the threshold for a maximum effect chill/shock, it is clearly required less effort to actually reach for a minimum effect.

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Gravedancer wrote:

80,000 = (damage dealt) X 2.95 X 1.19, solving for damage dealt... 22,789 required damage to chill Sirus with Ice shot. If you can't hit that hard you'll have bigger problems than your hypothermia support not working.

Agreed, at this point I expect for an Ice Shot, no matter how little the damage of each singular barraged hit, to deal at least that much since we are talking about Sirus

Skitterbots chill and shock without damage, and the language does not give any probability, so I have always assumed (never tested...) that those ailments will apply 100% to anything, including major bosses. This seems consistent with the design intent in 3.9 to make it much easier to apply the basic ailments to high-health bad guys.

Back to OP's question, and to Festicle's point, I think what matters is whether you are mainly interested in the slow, which is going to be very small on a major boss, or the "more" cold damage benefit against chilled targets from Hypothermia. That should definitely apply.

FWIW, 79% of the 300+ Barrage users (98 to 100) on Ninja are using Inspiration, and 68% are using Hypothermia. (83% of Inspiration users are also using Hypothermia.) They are the two most common supports for Barrage. For Ice Shot, it's 77% Inspiration and 33% Hypothermia.

There are a lot of other effects that give you some benefit against targets with a specific ailment, or that increase based on the number of ailments on the target. All of these effects should be relevant against any enemy with the ailment, regardless of the size of the ailment effect.