About Learning to Program

I just gotta say... this apart from the dev diary i put on off topic. That I just ran into a situation online that really set me off. And if I hadn't had so many years of online experience under my belt already I probably would have ended up getting suspended or banned just now.

Um basically I went to a programming forum to ask for advice on a problem I was having. I asked my question in the middle of the AM on the previous day so it took 12 hours for few answers to start rolling in. And keep in mind I just didn't ask the forum first I'd already been scouring the net for an answer but couldn't find one... so I was already getting annoyed in general.

Anyway, for the most part, I got the usual know-it-alls who don't really know what they are talking about. And that's one thing. But the thing that really got me pissed was when this one guy was acting really helpful and he posted a shit-ton of code example of some partially related stuff he'd been working on. But the thing is... it was the most convoluted complicated bullshit I'd seen in a while. 100 lines of it!!

And it instantly took me back to years ago back when I would take a look at programming but then get scared away from trying because of all the convoluted overly complicated "answers" that people would give to me when I was first wanting to learn.

Let me just put it like this: Reading the Python manual has a difficulty curve of 3, once you ease yourself into the syntax for about a week. But reading that dude's "answer" to my question had a difficulty spike of 23.

If I was completely new, I would have felt like not understanding what he wrote was my fault. But actually, I know just enough now to be able to see through his bullshit and to realize that it was HIM who didn't know what the fuck he was talking about. I almost got myself banned from a very respectable forum I was about to tell his ass off without holding back on anything.

But sorry long rant, my point is this: If you've ever wanted to program. Please don't let TERRIBLE TEACHERS put you off from your goal. No body on the forum had a concise answer for me, so I just kept searching, and eventually I solved the problem myself. And the solution was actually, very simple.

Coding is very liberating in this digital online world. I encourage you all to give it a shot. But beware of TERRIBLE TERRIBLE teachers who try to make themselves feel smarter by bombarding you with completely unnecessary and unrelated bullshit. Beginner programming, which is where I am at is actually more powerful and easier to use than you'd think. It's basically a logic and memory puzzle. That's it. So go for it.

I'm dumber than all of you and I'm programming right now pfft lol.

Not planning to learn coding here. Others may, for sure. It's the skill of the times, and must be rewarding to work with.

If I was 13 and online now I might just learn how to be a hacker though. Ah well, in another lifetime.

"

BearCares wrote:

I just gotta say... this apart from the dev diary i put on off topic.

And the "eat 15 rashers of bacon, a block of cheese and 7 avocados a day to be healthy" thread.

But let's not quibble.

Let's say between 60 and 90% of communication is non-verbal. The figure is really hard to nail down, so we'll go with a conservative 60%

That leaves 40% verbal, and online we take away tone as you can't hear the other people on a forum unless you know them really well and where they are coming from.

What's left subtracting the tone of the spoken word?

With strangers, maybe what 10?

So, you're already pissed

"

And keep in mind I just didn't ask the forum first I'd already been scouring the net for an answer but couldn't find one... so I was already getting annoyed in general.

I'm not convinced the guy wasn't genuinely trying to help.

In the end, we're all learning - the best teachers are generous and respectful enough to be brutally honest and also kind when we screw up. Getting the opportunity for that online and hearing the intended message is a crapshoot, true enough, when we're operating on such low percentages, bringing in a lot of defence stuff, and all out of sync!

It's good you are coming along with your knowledge, and have worked out a solution.

Teaching's hard, I take my hat off to people that can teach as a vocation. Takes a fuckton of patience and paying attention to teach well for hours and years at a stretch.

Good programmers put comments in their code to know and let others know what the fuck is going on.

Also btw, did you tried restartING your PC to solve that problem of yours?!

I just hate misinformation. Especially when I'm desperate for productive input. EVERYBODY on that forum got the solution WRONG. But they talked as if they knew what they were doing. I don't get pissed easily but bullshitters make me wanna slap somebody.

To be fair the answer to my question appears to be an esoteric one. It seems as if Python has a blindspot within its syntax where coders are forced to improvise a bit. So people come at this particular problem in whatever fashion they feel the most comfortable. I just don't see why you would throw 100 lines of code at a problem that only took 6 characters for me to solve though.

I mean what are you thinking?

"

IIPheXII wrote:

Good programmers put comments in their code to know and let others know what the fuck is going on.

Reminds me of a quote ... something ... let's see if I can find it. Nope, it's on a cool fortune site with a fair sized database I couldn't get it to spin around. The quote is really interesting, about how there's a lack of signposting and "how this was done" with code for others to follow as in, say, literature. I did find this one on there -

"

Programming is a creative art form based in logic. Every programmer is different and will code differently. It’s the output that matters.

– John Romero

I had a look to see if I could find it elsewhere, but no luck. These appeal to me:

"

“He has reverted, in other words, back into a pure balls-to-the-wall nerdism rivaled only by his early game-coding days back in Seattle. The sheer depth and involution of the current nerdism binge would be hard to convey to anyone. Intellectually, he is juggling half a dozen lit torches, Ming vases, live puppies, and running chainsaws. In this frame of mind he cannot bring himself to give a shit about the fact that this incredibly powerful billionaire has gone to a lot of trouble to come and F2F with him.”
― Neal Stephenson, Cryptonomicon

"

“Legacy code. The phrase strikes disgust in the hearts of programmers. It conjures images of slogging through a murky swamp of tangled undergrowth with leaches beneath and stinging flies above. It conjures odors of murk, slime, stagnancy, and offal. Although our first joy of programming may have been intense, the misery of dealing with legacy code is often sufficient to extinguish that flame.”
― Michael Feathers, Working Effectively with Legacy Code

"

bearcares wrote:

I just hate misinformation. Especially when I'm desperate for productive input. EVERYBODY on that forum got the solution WRONG. But they talked as if they knew what they were doing. I don't get pissed easily but bullshitters make me wanna slap somebody.

To be fair the answer to my question appears to be an esoteric one. It seems as if Python has a blindspot within its syntax where coders are forced to improvise a bit. So people come at this particular problem in whatever fashion they feel the most comfortable. I just don't see why you would throw 100 lines of code at a problem that only took 6 characters for me to solve though.

I mean what are you thinking?

If it was an esoteric answer, no wonder people went about it in arcane ways.

That reminds me of the comment the what was he, an Austrian royal said to Mozart his music had too many notes.

If it works, does it matter?

Maybe they were genius level teachers who got you to come up with the answer yourself. Said with a laugh.

We will never know, and it doesn't matter. Onwards.

"

BearCares wrote:

But sorry long rant, my point is this: [...] Please don't let TERRIBLE TEACHERS put you off from your goal. No body on the forum had a concise answer for me

Don't let forum posters be your teachers. Beginners should grab a good book that both teaches the language they're interested in and teaches the principles of programming. After much hands-on practice (much = year(s)), forums can then be a good source for asking questions, gleaning supplemental info, collaborating on a problem, etc., because you'll have a good foundation to leverage when determining what posts are helpful and which are bullshit and trollish.

erdelyii already hinted at this but your not just asking for somebody that can code.

Your asking for somebody that can code and teach.

And while the former might be in abundance nowadays, the later probably much less so let alone finding somebody that has went true the effort of mastering both.

Teaching is the mastery over a field.

Peace,

-Boem-

"

Altnaharra wrote:

"

Boem wrote:

Teaching is the mastery over a field.

Learning is the mastery of teaching.

Down the rabit hole we go daisy :)?

Peace,

-Boem-

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Alt and Boem stood in the middle of a wide green field under an oak tree. They had been walking in circles all morning and were quite cross. The oak tree offered some welcome shade.

Being cross did not stop Alt and Boem from continuing their debate.

"Learning is the mastery of teaching," Alt said, as he adjusted his tartan toque.
"Teaching is the mastery over a field," quipped Boem, squelching the damp earth as he rocked back and forth on his clogs.
"Field mastery is the teaching," Alt shot back.
Boem snorted.
"Is this field teachable?" he asked.
"Do acorns learn with their caps on or off?" asked Alt, intentionally confusing the matter.

The mention of caps made Boem rather thirsty for a beer, and he began to look around for a little table with a drink on it, or even a little cake or two. As he did so, a brilliant green python stretched down out of one of the branches and waved its front half gently for their attention.

"THHHHHHHHHphhh," said the python.
Alt and Boem thought it terribly rude to notice the snake's dreadful lisp, so thick "hello" (they presumed) sounded like a drunk Scotsman saying "three thrushes thought thirsty things" through a spoonful of haggis, and they were curious, so they replied
"Hello", in unison and stepped back three paces, away from the snake with its gleaming ruby eyes and flickering tongue.

"THHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhh".
Boem and Alt waited.
The snake coughed politely, dislodging a small dormouse from its jaws.
The dormouse landed on the branch, scrabbled for purchase then squeaked and ran up the branch into a dense bunch of leaves, shaking its wet fur as it went.

"Pardon me", said the python, suddenly sounding perfectly clear.
"I couldn't help but notice you seem eager to go down the rabbit hole," it went on, coiling around the branch as it spoke.
"Daisies and powershells yes," exclaimed Alt.
"And also rather infuriated. Well, there's a trick to it," said the python,
"You have to follow the white rabbit, and he must be running late and distracted so you catch the coat tails of his magic without him dusting you off."

"Oh," said Boem.
"We haven't seen a white rabbit though, we've just been traipsing around eating cakes and drinking out of little bottles and growing bigger and smaller but you are the first really peculiar creature that we have seen, and even then we don't feel like we've fallen down a deep hole and landed on a bunch of dry sticks and leaves," said Alt.

"No indeed, the rabbit is almost never late these days. He uses an atomic clock wristwatch and has bluetooth receiver in his one unlopped ear. The red queen finally took one off after he was late one too many times, and that did the trick as well as a hundred and seventy - odd of progress to get him to be punctual. Is he still a lop-eared rabbit though or a lop lop eared or half that? I wonder. People say this world is all tricks and fancy but they couldn't be more wrong," said the snake, closing its beautiful eyes.

It continued a little sadly, eyes still closed, "we get so few visitors as a result of the rabbit's timeliness, down there, we are forgetting ourselves. We don't remember anything but the Jabber... Jabber..."

The snake sighed, a long, slow exhalation.
Alt and Boem exchanged glances.

The seconds stretched out like toffee, if toffee was perfectly clear and a little bit boring, without any taste.

The snake started snoring softly, it's tongue tip flicking gently with the vibrations.

Boem's stomach rumbled, and Alt nodded to him,
"yes, doesn't that mean that ...? We have time to - "

The leaves rustled up the branch. The dormouse crept back down the branch, settled into a hollow of one of the snake's coils and began gently drying its fur with a little blue towel monogrammed 58.

Upon the reeds there danced a gnat
who liked to dine on air
upon the air there flew a bat
whose reedy cries weren't there

It sang in a tiny voice.

"Well," it demanded, fixing Boem, then Alt, with its bright apple seed eyes.
"Why is an owl like a SSD?"

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Ha, oh dear. That just popped out. No more where that came from, I assure you. Good luck in the league guys :3

I started studying python recently, got myself a 1600 page book that goes from the basics up to advanced basics, and im climbing slowly. Got some experience in C and visual basic but that was 10 years ago.

I hope i never have to ask anyone for help. But if i do, i have irl friends that are super advanced luckily.