[Case Study] +3 VS Spell% + Spell Flat

Continuation of "Theory Craft" Thread https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1752120

Okay, We probably need Markus on this one. (Summoning Markus ¯\(°_°)/¯)

VS


Combined with

Okay, So we all know, +3 Does more damage than spell + flat (non crit) and in more extreme cases +3 does lesser damage than spell crit staff (full T1 rolls etc)

Case Point - IF +3 staff gives 20% MORE damage on single spells, is it truly better than a spell damage with flat spell damage modded staff?

For Example, If +3 staff does 500 damage, and spell damage + spell flat staff does 400, but with 3 4L on cwdt, Which one is better?

With my 4L 3 cwdt links doesn't not change,
With my 3 4L cwdt roughly does double the current dps.

In arbitrary number terms, if +3 staff does 500 damage, 50 50 50 (3 4L cwdt), total damage is 650

Whereas would do 400 damage, 100 100 100 (3 4L cwdt), total damage is 700.



However the highest possible damage for spell casters are low life shav casters, WITH +3 staffs crit, but the defensive is incredibility low.

Small Damage Scale Chart
1 Low life ES +3 crit staff (hard to obtain/ may not even exist)
2 low life ES duo weild (Currently probaly most used and most visable setup to date)
3 Low life ES Shield 1h (Pretty standard setup)
4 Life +3 crit staff (hard to obtain/ may not even exist)
5 Life +3 staff Normal
6 Life non crit Staff (Point of Interest)

IF Vortex + Empower = 2542-3815 cold damage aka 3528.1 dps 4503.1 degen
VS
Vortex + Empower = 2475-3714 cold damage 217-433 fire damage, aka 3795.6 dps
4040.1 degen

Okay, So perhaps vortex is not the best example, it has multiple stages, degen etc, lets try again with ice spear,

= 3277-4913cold 4832.1 dps
= 3077-4614cold 174-348fire 4845.6 dps

Okay, the statement above that +3 staff is better than spell & flat spell damage is not true, (I didn't knew this myself, as I thought +3 spell power was and is always better than spell +flat spell damage mods.)

However I believe this further proves point of study, +3 is NOT better, and does less damage, and does not help the other 3 cwdt links, that are reliably cast-able with Scolds.

So, in the arbitrary number case, +3 = 500 +50+50+50 = 650, spell + flat spell damage = 500 +100+100+100 damage = 800 damage.


in terms of damage conversion and penetration yes, fire split with cold flat damage is abit meh, because penetration gem only applies to each elemental, thus a pure cold ice spear with cold pen would do more damage and cold fire ice spear, so the flat spell damage roll is rather important depending the element of the spell casted.

as in regards why would anyone pick Staff with Life?
Cause Flask + Leg kaoms +MoM & Scolds = Defensively OP, whilst doing enough damage to kill.

Finally as to, why would you use multiple attacking mechanism? I suggest reading Mark's "PvP Tooltip DPS Calulator" https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1615522 Long story short, because T value exist on "most skills", heavily investing in one attacking mechanism will be heavily handicapped, For example, Explosive arrow has a high T value reduction, Explosive Arrow loses approximately 70% damage, only dealing 30% per hit, THUS hitting multiple times, faster and often smaller hits are a more effective way to deal a higher amount of damage, rather than a large high damage, slow hits.


Thanks for the Long Read, Hope you've enjoyed it, lets hope it has inspired you to combine and master these mechanisms.
Libritannia

Reference
Jin's Staff Mom Kaoms build over a year ago, Can't find it anymore(I even pm'ed him for link :D)
MoM - Markus (https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1706498/page/1)

Ahm

Well first of all one handers will always be superior when you are making a caster. This is especially true when making CWDT builds. One handers dont lose any potential as they can get all the prefixes and suffixes you want whereas with staves you have to decide which huge more multiplier you will leave out.

If you really want to make something with staves, you should probably first plan out what skills you will be dealing damage with. The skills determine what the best setup is. Anyways, I'm fairly sure even if you are dealing damage through cwdt procs, the good old +1 gems, 100%+ spell damage, blood magic/bcr staff is the king whatever you are about to do.

Also, chill a bit.

May there be many ^ in this thread.

"

lapiz wrote:

Ahm

Well first of all one handers will always be superior when you are making a caster. This is especially true when making CWDT builds. One handers dont lose any potential as they can get all the prefixes and suffixes you want whereas with staves you have to decide which huge more multiplier you will leave out.

If you really want to make something with staves, you should probably first plan out what skills you will be dealing damage with. The skills determine what the best setup is. Anyways, I'm fairly sure even if you are dealing damage through cwdt procs, the good old +1 gems, 100%+ spell damage, blood magic/bcr staff is the king whatever you are about to do.

Also, chill a bit.

May there be many ^ in this thread.

Duo wield will yield more dps overall yes, as stated, cause it provides 2 bcr mods, however duo wielding cannot effectively use leg kaoms, and you're kinda forced into ES, and as ES you can't take advantage of MoM nor Flasks.

It's hard to calculate, and tbh BM BCR 100 spell damage staff doesn't appeal to too much, in logical sense, if you're running MoM you don't need BM. The good old +1 gems works well yes, but that's mostly ES / Glassy side of things, as you may know, I'm more into the tanky side of things.

I do think, kaoms, MoM, life based flasks, 6l staff spell power + flat spell damage BCR is the more idealistic setup/ hitting the sweet spot in terms of min maxing.

Just an interesting case study anyways, I was typing it up, whilst I was testing it, Would love to see someone actually put the theory into practice.

side note wise, Haven't been sleeping so well lately, chill is hard.

Edit
Highlighted part
I don't understand what you meant that 1h's has "more" damage multipliers compared to 2h staves.

Nice wall of text you got there, I raise you my 1758188

It's funny how relevant my recently made spreadsheet about levels and added flat damages is for you now, have fun.

I won't make detailed calculations for your examples, as there are so many things to consider, and since you have all your items you can easily test setup differences.

Keep in mind tho that because of the PvP formula if you split like a 1000 damage into 2 500 damage hits by using another cwdt or whatever, you will deal more damage because the formula punishes the higher damage more.

E: Lapiz also already stated that one handers are more damage for sure. What he meant is that while on one handers you can pick flat, inc spell, hybrid and bcr, and get double as much suffixes than staves, on staves you can pick from flat, inc spell, hybrid, bcr, +1, +2 but only 3 of these. One handers can also use +1 chest.

Staves only make sense to use if you use leg kaoms, or need specific unique like tremor, or you can't scale damage through inc spell and flat, like SRS or herald.

E2: Also try not to make statements which staff is better based on just that few examples, and still if you would test everything you could hardly say any of them is better than the other because it all depends on what skill you use and how much inc spell damage modifiers you have. If you are a tank with small dmg investment on tree then inc spell dmg staff can be better, but if you roll a glasscannon then +3 can be better, just common sense.