Double dipping poison

Can someone please explain the double dipping mechanic of poison, and just about every single way to double dip anything? I'm just about lostbas to why my higher damaging hit builds are so Mich worse than poison builds and why I just can't get past killing a tier 15 boss on less than 30 seconds. What am I missing?

Example, what's wrong with this tree using sliverpinch and qigwald's quills, tornado's shot (with barrage for single, maybe even AoE) and copris will to apply poison. It has good base damage, good crit and decent multi on a decent bow, with poison. Yet I was told not to go this way cause it won't work very well. What did I miss? How should I get this build working the way it can be best? (I want a tornado shot or barrage as my main clearing skill, cause I like thebfeel of it better)


http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAABAICAE2SI_aNfQHc7g7wu63CaU7asem9z14VQ_66fXVTu7_VRJ4hYE3j8kX-Cv6POuGmVzWS2L1_K9NvBS107XrvLlMnLxo4kFWGziF2wTPJZ-1EQXK8mjB8rKplTUd-vTa-p4TZU89DMVFH036VBZrxCImm4H8C2cZdaDKUyqmHaqmU9zIMX1OlHKf8xZpq4J8FZm8nI9PoZgixP_zawY1-zZjqYnXLCC7E9j0-5c-Yb5J93CPverXyxRubjXfj15ZoWInYGY7tgwBedvc51KCfMfpbr0z_eA3AGm87cqn_3iT951R08Smltz6jioNfPC2DzKlu45-Hdkp9DY1Z804qxq55aAAAAAAAAA==

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EpicMaster207 wrote:

Can someone please explain the double dipping mechanic of poison, and just about every single way to double dip anything?

Sure, poison is what I like to call a Derived DoT, that is to say the base damage of the DoT is based on some final Hit damage.

So double dipping occurs when you have one modifier that affects both the Hit portion and the DoT portion, making it extra efficient.

Generic (untyped) damage bonuses will always double dip. These are the form "x% increased damage" or "x% more damage."

Next, depending on how much Chaos Damage you have in your initial Hit, you can get some double dipping from chaos damage as well.

If your poisonous hits are coming from projectiles, that is a massive way to double dip, look for untyped projectile damage. Just be aware physical projectile damage won't double dip on poison and neither will projectile attack damage; damage over time is never Attack damage.

Similarly if the Hit dealt is from an Area Damage skill then Area Damage will double dip.

Ditto for traps and mines.

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Rumstein wrote:

Double Dipping is where a damage scaler applies both to the initial and secondary degen damage. This only happens with ignite, poison and bleeding damage.

The secondary degen is based on the initial hit (ignite = 20%/sec for 4 secs, poison = 10%/sec for 2 secs, bleed = 10%/sec for 5 secs).

Double dipping mods are those that affect both primary and secondary damage, scaling the initial hit scales the degen base, which is then scaled again. These include delivery methods (trap, mine, aoe, projectile, melee) and damage type (physical - bleed, elemental/fire - ignite, chaos - poison), as well as global damage (frenzy charges, redbeak). Damage classes (spell, attack) do not affect the secondary degen, and degen damage types (poison, burning, bleeding) do not affect the initial hit, so do not double dip.

That quote is slightly wrong in a couple of ways.

First, it's old, so it didn't account for Poison nerf of 10% down to 8%.

Secondly melee is an Attack only delivery method so it can never double dip.

Also to be more accurate, degen itself is a "damage class" as RumStein put it, so that is why bonuses that specify spell or attack don't double dip without exceptions - the 4 damage classes (attack, spell, dot, secondary) are mutually exclusive.

Note that there are 2 Spells that enable Spell Damage bonuses to double dip hough stated exception: Vortex, Essence Drain allow Spell Damage to apply to DoT.