Labyrinth. Complains.

I'm probably just one more here complaining on the lab, but here we go!

1-It doesn't really make sense while leveling. (A while back, on perandus, I was playing with a friend who was new to PoE, he saw that we COULD enter the lab after the last trial. I told him that we could, but we really shouldn't do that. He then, said that he was curious about the "hard challenge" and wanted to give it a try. I was the most boring attempt on my life, after alost half an hour we reached last Izaro, then we both died when he had about 15% life remaining. My friend did quit shortly after this.) You go through normal, usually finish 1 act cruel, then do normal lab. For cruel lab you also need bo backtrack, and same for merc lab.

2-Shoudn't be related to ascendancy. I had a really long talk with another friend (this one actually introduced PoE to me and disagree on this subject). I'm inclined to consider ascendancy a core part of character progression, the lab slow your progression too much. (To be fair, I also agree with my friend when he says that with ascendancies you can reach an absurd power level and you shouldn't get that easily, even though this only aply to end game.)

3-It's a forced hardcore experience on softcore players. One way to have some fun with this game is sometimes doing creative (stupid) builds, or "glass cannon" builds, with the lab as it is, any mistake, lag or unlucky hit means a lost run and lost time. If that happens more than once it's a frustrating and boring experience. I think I should say this again: ascendancy is a core part of the game, lab look like a really harsh way to give you that. (Yes, if you play hardcore you lose a lot more if you die, you can also lose currency and time when you do "some science" with vaal orbs or exalts, but all that is optional.)



Suggestions

A side note before: I think the lab is in the game to give (specially melee) armor characters some space to shine, and I agree they do deserve that!

I also think the lab IS a geat content, it just wasn't implemented the right way.

1-Lab could be more rewarding, but not related to ascendancy anymore. Lab would still give you the enchants and even more loot and stay "hardcore 1 portal" as it is. This way, one option is to get the ascendancy points after each dificulty and the last 2 after the map trials.

2-Lab could exist as a map. If you are a softcore you can have 6 tries on it, but if you exit you can't open any golden chest (or maybe lose 1 key/death?), just get the ascendancy (and maybe enchants?).






Not a native english speaker, I just hope you can understand me :D

1) Back when you tried it, if you haven't played much since perandus, they nerfed normal and cruel izaro since then. You can do it before even finishing act 3 if you have the skill and do almost any preparation for the challenge itself.

2) It should be related to ascendancy, because a somewhat difficult challenge to get more power fits the game perfectly. Instead of the rather stupid suggestions like having malachai give you the points.


Slows down progression too much? It gives you more power and it doesn't take that long to complete, unless you completely ignore all sources of help out there for you. Like the daily lab thread that states the challenges, layouts, ect of that lab. Unless you do nothing to upgrade gear or prepare for the fight. The game as a whole NEEDS stuff that is rewarding after completing it, the lab is one of the only pieces of content that actually does that and you think its too slow?

3) The "forced hardcore" is a bit of a stretch, while the gameplay must be completed in one run, which is similar to a hardcore like experience, its also designed to be achieveable that way as well. Unlike maps which can't effectively be done with one portal (and still get all the loot you want too), the lab is designed in such a way that it can be done in one swoop.

A) The defenses for the builds don't really matter that much, if your going glass cannon builds you can still do the lab with proper planning. Decoy totem, blind, positioning, movement skills, instant life pots, ect can all help that sort of playstyle live thru the lab, I know, I have done it.

Ascendancy is a reward for completing a challenge, that challenge is the lab, they are a pair, without the reward of AC points, the lab suffers, without AC points being behind something that requires time or planning, the game suffers because then its just massive power given for free.




As for your suggestions:

Armor does nothing against the most deadly of the traps, the saw blades, meat tenderizers and roombas all do DOT, %physical damage mitigation from various things do help, but reduction from armor does not because it only applies to hits. I will however agree that the lab is melee friendly for the most part, but its achievable by every build that I have done or even thought of doing.


1) The reward is the AC points for all of the players, the enchantments, lab drops, leaderboards and chest are there for those that want to do it multiple times. Once you get the largest reward out of something it becomes less rewarding to do it again.

The suggestion of adding them after malachai is terrible, no act boss rewards you with anything, but progression to the next difficulty or act. You didn't do anything special or different to do that, so why would you get this massive power increase outside of completing the lab challenge?

After the map trials to get the last 2, because doing the lab is too much effort I guess?


2) So someone can rush you to the end to split farm enchantments or to carry you even quicker, nope.



No indication has been given by GGG they will change the lab, while your feedback is better then most, the ideas\suggestions are not. AC+Lab go hand and hand together.

Ascendany is fine behind the Lab, enchants alone won't be enough to bring people inside of it.

The problem has just been that the lab isn't fun nor is it designed in a way that supports the core mechanics of the game.

The main aspect of the lab is the traps but the traps should have been placed in rooms where we fight monsters. The traps didn't need to do that much damage or any damage at all. They could have caused status effects to support certain encounters with enemies. These status effects should be a true value that can't reduced or become immune to. That way all builds suffer the same fate when getting hit by them. But the traps set you up for the monsters to kill you.

We didn't need these large open areas of trap gauntlets then a few packs of monsters. They needed to be combined in smaller rooms with interesting encounters. The lab could have had 100 different rooms to slot in. But only 20-30 get chosen each day for the lab.

Siderooms could have house better rewards. Currency chests, permanent shrines, special chests with a high chance for uniques, enchant shrine, etc. So you can blow through it all if you want as fast as possible. Or you can take your time and get extra rewards.

The "hardcore" element to it could have had checkpoints each time you defeat izaro in a trial.

Stuff like this would make it better for everyone. I don't believe GGG will go back and change up the lab anytime soon. So if you like it great, if you don't.. run it a few times for your points and move on. It's really all you can do at this point.

Lab haters army incoming to support op in 3... 2... 1...

And this needed an own thread because?

"

Sa_Re wrote:

And this needed an own thread because?

Well it is feedback .... and suggestions here.
Much better feedback than many lab threads recently.

"If you have the skill and do almost any preparation"
If I don't have the skill and don't do any preparation (like cold resist) against merc (or even cruel) Merveil I can die over and over again without losing much time, same apply for most of the game, but not for lab.

A challenge to get power fits the game: agreed! Still doesn't explain why it should be lab and without any death (or leaving). "Rather stupid suggestion" isn't a way to argue, my reply to that end here.


"it doesn't take that long, unless you completely ignore all sources of help out there for you" I would say the time really vary, please consider things like loading times and new players and number of deaths, also daily lab thread is a third party source and I do use it, but I have to question this! Is it right to make people stop playing, take a look at a third party site, then come back?


Should I tell the same Merveil story again? Anywhere in the game I can die over and over again and still overcome the challenge without losing too much time. I can even die 5 times on core malachai, but not on the lab, die at the last Izaro and you lose the run.


"Proper planning", "Decoy, blind, positioning, movement skills... playstile..." So, you have to change your gameplay for lab? I agree that you do! I judt don't think this should be the only way to do lab.


Ascendancy should be a reward for a challence, I agree! "That challenge is the lab", "they are a pair"(really romantic <3) But I still don't agree they should? Also People did run lab a lot even after getting the AC points just for the enchants (and uber lab for the enchants and loot). About the game suffering for power given for free, if you're lucky and get some chaos you can ask someone to run lab for you, power given almost for free.




You're right. I was thinking about tank builds with foify+armor+power charges.


You find side areas, touch a thing and get teleported back. If you do that some times you are able to fight a boss. I could be talking about Atziri or Izaro. The whole thing just look like a side quest. But it isn't. Peoploe run Atziri and Lab for the loot. I really think you can get the AC points out of that.

There, much better argumentation! Why finishing the game acts, "saving the wolrd", discovering the plot gives you: nothing? I rather get some AC points than stay with the "random portal to the same old shore again".


It's quite simple to stop the fast run/enchant farm: just do the same as they did with quests: checkpoints. You can't fight piety without doing solar temple, you shouldn't do Izaro III, without Izaro II and I.

Changing is what I want, also thank you for your feedback!

"

e1337donkey wrote:

Ascendany is fine behind the Lab, enchants alone won't be enough to bring people inside of it.

The problem has just been that the lab isn't fun nor is it designed in a way that supports the core mechanics of the game.

The main aspect of the lab is the traps but the traps should have been placed in rooms where we fight monsters. The traps didn't need to do that much damage or any damage at all. They could have caused status effects to support certain encounters with enemies. These status effects should be a true value that can't reduced or become immune to. That way all builds suffer the same fate when getting hit by them. But the traps set you up for the monsters to kill you.

We didn't need these large open areas of trap gauntlets then a few packs of monsters. They needed to be combined in smaller rooms with interesting encounters. The lab could have had 100 different rooms to slot in. But only 20-30 get chosen each day for the lab.

Siderooms could have house better rewards. Currency chests, permanent shrines, special chests with a high chance for uniques, enchant shrine, etc. So you can blow through it all if you want as fast as possible. Or you can take your time and get extra rewards.

The "hardcore" element to it could have had checkpoints each time you defeat izaro in a trial.

Stuff like this would make it better for everyone. I don't believe GGG will go back and change up the lab anytime soon. So if you like it great, if you don't.. run it a few times for your points and move on. It's really all you can do at this point.

That look like a harder and more rewarding lab, I like the Idea! It's perfect for those who enjoy it. But I have to argue again: some people did merc lab over and over again just for a good enchant, and now they do the same with uber lab (with the good loot bonus). I don't see why AC point are so meaningfull for it.

as a vaal pact character in the prophecy, I fully agree at least for the "uber" trial, that's really really sucks. I don't play anymore in HC for that, and no, it don't give an HC feeling in sc, if you don't have regen it's just horribily stressfull, thank you...

"

"If you have the skill and do almost any preparation"
If I don't have the skill and don't do any preparation (like cold resist) against merc (or even cruel) Merveil I can die over and over again without losing much time, same apply for most of the game, but not for lab.

Loss of time isn't an valid excuse, if you aren't willing to learn the game or do anything different to overcome the challenge you shouldn't be playing this game to begin with. What is going to happen when you start doing various map mods, just zerg those down as well or don't even due them? If you aren't doing map mods, why on earth do you even care about AC points?

The lab is meant to be that higher level of content that requires more then a zerg approach, again one of the worst changes they did to the game was have you respawn outside the zone like mervel, this game isn't a causal game, nor was it originally designed to be such.

"

A challenge to get power fits the game: agreed! Still doesn't explain why it should be lab and without any death (or leaving). "Rather stupid suggestion" isn't a way to argue, my reply to that end here.

Leaving is because you could cheese it with pots and without deaths, well obviously because you can just throw your body at it. Cheese free content is actually good game design, even if "causal" players aren't able to catch on.

"

"it doesn't take that long, unless you completely ignore all sources of help out there for you" I would say the time really vary, please consider things like loading times and new players and number of deaths, also daily lab thread is a third party source and I do use it, but I have to question this! Is it right to make people stop playing, take a look at a third party site, then come back?

Loading times? Its 2016, if you don't have an SSD by this stage you well shouldn't be playing any games probably. What do you want, GGG to put the daily lab thread inside the game, would that make you happy, many aspects of this game requires alt+tab, it isn't farteched to assume that players that want to enjoy this game should use resources available to them. You don't go around playing random games without looking up information when needed do you?

"

Should I tell the same Merveil story again? Anywhere in the game I can die over and over again and still overcome the challenge without losing too much time. I can even die 5 times on core malachai, but not on the lab, die at the last Izaro and you lose the run.

Time is not a factor that should be considered here. But sure you save time because you can zerg the content, that doesn't mean that change was good, if anything it was bad.

Content you have to play more carefully around is good, not bad, suggesting otherwise, aside from "the rest of the game i can just play like a retard" isn't a valid reason as to why its "bad" that the lab requires you do it without playing like a retard.

"

"Proper planning", "Decoy, blind, positioning, movement skills... playstile..." So, you have to change your gameplay for lab? I agree that you do! I judt don't think this should be the only way to do lab.

Do you do all content in the game without adjusting anything, like -max maps, specific boss encounters, ect? No you adjust when you can because its the efficient and effective thing to do. How do people do boss encounters outside of the lab, like in maps, just offscreen them? What about tankier bosses that hit hard, they probably use blind or decoy. Positioning isn't knew, you have to avoid getting hit by bearers and avoid volitile blood. Movement skills, at this point almost everyone likely uses at least one movement skill. I'm not suggesting you change your playstyle completely only that you use the resources you actually already like use, if not you should be because these resources will also help you outside the lab as well.

"

Ascendancy should be a reward for a challence, I agree! "That challenge is the lab", "they are a pair"(really romantic <3) But I still don't agree they should? Also People did run lab a lot even after getting the AC points just for the enchants (and uber lab for the enchants and loot). About the game suffering for power given for free, if you're lucky and get some chaos you can ask someone to run lab for you, power given almost for free.

This is what cracks me up most about the lab complains, where you say you can purchase a rush, as if that prevents you from having to deal with the traps altogether, it does not. Some places there are short cuts or you have to deal less with, but you still have to make it thru traps. People I think pay for rushes for the boss aspect as he can be very difficult on some days, but the boss has nothing to do with the traps.

"

You're right. I was thinking about tank builds with foify+armor+power charges.

Fortify also only works against the traps that hit. Think you mean endurance charges here, those are % reduction so they work against almost all the traps.

"

You find side areas, touch a thing and get teleported back. If you do that some times you are able to fight a boss. I could be talking about Atziri or Izaro. The whole thing just look like a side quest. But it isn't. Peoploe run Atziri and Lab for the loot. I really think you can get the AC points out of that.

People FARM the lab for the loot, they RUN the lab (as in once) for the AC points.

"

There, much better argumentation! Why finishing the game acts, "saving the wolrd", discovering the plot gives you: nothing? I rather get some AC points than stay with the "random portal to the same old shore again".

Except it would give you both with that suggestion. You aren't "saving the world", much like previously killing dominius wasn't, there is obviously more to the story, which is why they don't reward you with anything anyway. Act bosses don't give you shit in rewards, malachai should be no different.

"

It's quite simple to stop the fast run/enchant farm: just do the same as they did with quests: checkpoints. You can't fight piety without doing solar temple, you shouldn't do Izaro III, without Izaro II and I.

Changing is what I want, also thank you for your feedback!

Quite simple you say, lol. That only addresses the issue if it is, but if I had to suspect it isn't quite simple nor is it probably going to change.