When Chris says that lab haters are a minority, how right is he?

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kreca74 wrote:

i read the first post and some of the fainboyism. it would change nothing if i'd read 46 pages because pooling says 4-5 pages are representative enough.

Edit: besides, if you'd looked at the poll since the beginning you'd realize that roughly the same result was true at about ~200 people. it only changed 2-4% after that, when it hit 1200 people.

I f you had read more than just a few pages, you'd see that nobody is arguing that the percentages based on number of votes is a problem. The problem is the pool of voters is not representative of the playing population.


Using your example:

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kreca74 wrote:

the forum is very representative for the whole player base; also, learn how polling works.
in politics for ex. - you make a poll on a sample of 2k - 3k people and the result of that has an error margin of +,- 3%.
basically, if you'd poll 200 - 300 mill people you'd get roughly the same result.

so i'd expect this poll to be +,-3% of the "real" numbers.

So if you (using american politics as an example) polled people at the republican national convention and asked what they thought of the democratic candidate, the results wouldn't change much whether it was 100 people or 1000 people answering. But that doesn't mean asking the overall population would have the same results. The results are skewed by the group of people answering.

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

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wsbisev wrote:

raics, but traps make no sense in Poe

maybe in Dark Souls.

They make plenty of sense. This game is an unfinished work in progression. Do you know how many other ARPGs have traps in them ? ALOT. Its pretty much one of those stereotypical ARPG designs, an ARPG is not an ARPG without traps.

Sometimes you just gotta wonder how many games people have actually played. I suggest you go play some other ARPGs if you think "traps dont fit". And those games have them as a CORE mechanic, they can literally be anywhere.

Ask yourself "Would Darksouls be Darksouls without traps?" the answer would be, no, it wouldnt be.

Diablo 2, the most iconic ARPG, did not have a labyrinth full of traps. Did it have some? Sure. Were they a core gameplay gating content? Nope.

So stop this crap please, just because some RPGs had traps in them doesn't mean they are justified in creating this abortion for "old times sake" or whatever BS crap you want to pull.

Oh and good job to the people denying polls as not being representative or accurate or whatever. Of course you will move the goalpost when you don't like what you see. Eventually you'll demand that someone asks every PoE player what they think, otherwise the polls mean nothing.

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Johny_Snow wrote:

Eventually you'll demand that someone asks every PoE player what they think, otherwise the polls mean nothing.

That wouldn't be necessary. Randomly picking, say, 10000 accounts that completed labyrinth in prophecy league and sending them a message window with

"

What do you think of your labyrinth runs?
- like
- somewhat like
- neutral
- somewhat dislike
- dislike

would do the job quite well.

But, like I said already, there's no reason for devs to bother, they can easily tell when we truly dislike something, poll or no poll.

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Sexcalibure wrote:

http://www.strawpoll.me/10311205If GGG and Chris are so sure of what they imply, why dont they ask that same question to their players

there is no shame asking people what they think of your work

what i think GGG is actually down is be like if Justin Beiber said " People like my music, look i got 1.3 billions views on "Baby"" But completely ignore the fact that the like/dislike factor is at 60% dislike.

GGG are the best dev i've ever seen , we have many proof available since many years !!!
your strawpoll is worthless, of course labyrinth is boring, not balanced, it's from patch 2.2

just check patch 2.3 and see how much your "bieber wilson" doesn't care about community.

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Johny_Snow wrote:

Diablo 2, the most iconic ARPG, did not have a labyrinth full of traps. Did it have some? Sure. Were they a core gameplay gating content? Nope.

So stop this crap please, just because some RPGs had traps in them doesn't mean they are justified in creating this abortion for "old times sake" or whatever BS crap you want to pull.

D2? So no ARPG game is allowed to try something new, because D2 didn't have it? Do every ARPG need to follow the same formula? Over and over again?

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Johny_Snow wrote:

Oh and good job to the people denying polls as not being representative or accurate or whatever. Of course you will move the goalpost when you don't like what you see. Eventually you'll demand that someone asks every PoE player what they think, otherwise the polls mean nothing.

Good job? If you have a small portion of critical sense, you would know that a huge portion of the player base ALWAYS do not give a shit, do not mind, do not care or are completely neutral on the matter. Will these persons click on a thread questioning the lab? No.

Again, please, count every unique poster FOR and AGAINST the lab in this thread, and give me the number. Then we'll see how many % of the player base are represented here. Polls like this is BULLSHIT! Biased and useless.

And to your information: I do not like the lab. I just don't see anything wrong with it. There are elements in every single game in the world I don't like. But I don't own a horse, certainly not a high horse, so I don't go around whining about every single thing I don't like.

Because I know the world isn't centered around me.

A poll of over 1250 data points is meaningless. TIL

Why cancerous topics like this even allowed? Forum posters will always be a minority,the most vocal,but still a minority.
Someone please,lock this already.

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mark1030 wrote:

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kreca74 wrote:

the forum is very representative for the whole player base; also, learn how polling works.
in politics for ex. - you make a poll on a sample of 2k - 3k people and the result of that has an error margin of +,- 3%.
basically, if you'd poll 200 - 300 mill people you'd get roughly the same result.

so i'd expect this poll to be +,-3% of the "real" numbers.

So if you (using american politics as an example) polled people at the republican national convention and asked what they thought of the democratic candidate, the results wouldn't change much whether it was 100 people or 1000 people answering. But that doesn't mean asking the overall population would have the same results. The results are skewed by the group of people answering.

Yea, except this is not "republican national convention " by political standards. That is where your logic fails, as you assume that the people presented on the forums are ones that only dont like the lab. And that is not the case.

I dont need to repeat myself, but the fact is, there where multiple polls done in different times, and different sites. And overall they all show one thing, big separation in community over the lab.

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phrazz wrote:

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Johny_Snow wrote:

Diablo 2, the most iconic ARPG, did not have a labyrinth full of traps. Did it have some? Sure. Were they a core gameplay gating content? Nope.

So stop this crap please, just because some RPGs had traps in them doesn't mean they are justified in creating this abortion for "old times sake" or whatever BS crap you want to pull.

D2? So no ARPG game is allowed to try something new, because D2 didn't have it? Do every ARPG need to follow the same formula? Over and over again?

PoE did try, and how you can see a lot of people hate it/dont like it, including you how I understand (also if you do not like something in a game for whatever reason, you give feedback about it, in hopes that devs will change it and make the game better for you). I mean POE can try a lot of things, from card game implementation to puzzle games where more core aspects of the game are gated behind it. I guarantee you, a lot of people that played POE, a arpg that was marketed to be like diablo 2 will be pissed on a lot of those changes, as they have very little to do with arpg games. As same as this one, when we are talking about traps in the lab.

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miljan wrote:

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mark1030 wrote:

"

kreca74 wrote:

the forum is very representative for the whole player base; also, learn how polling works.
in politics for ex. - you make a poll on a sample of 2k - 3k people and the result of that has an error margin of +,- 3%.
basically, if you'd poll 200 - 300 mill people you'd get roughly the same result.

so i'd expect this poll to be +,-3% of the "real" numbers.

So if you (using american politics as an example) polled people at the republican national convention and asked what they thought of the democratic candidate, the results wouldn't change much whether it was 100 people or 1000 people answering. But that doesn't mean asking the overall population would have the same results. The results are skewed by the group of people answering.

Yea, except this is not "republican national convention " by political standards. That is where your logic fails, as you assume that the people presented on the forums are ones that only dont like the lab. And that is not the case.

I dont need to repeat myself, but the fact is, there where multiple polls done in different times, and different sites. And overall they all show one thing, big separation in community over the lab.

And I don't need to repeat myself, but the fact is the people who post in the forums are not unbiased. Count the number of "game is great" threads in the feedback forums and then tell me there isn't a prevalent negative bias from people that use the forums.

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miljan wrote:

Yea, except this is not "republican national convention " by political standards. That is where your logic fails, as you assume that the people presented on the forums are ones that only dont like the lab. And that is not the case.

I dont need to repeat myself, but the fact is, there where multiple polls done in different times, and different sites. And overall they all show one thing, big separation in community over the lab.

Just because you refuse to understand what he's saying doesn't mean his logic failed, but it means that you're dishonest.

And yeah polls made within 3 months sure had a very different population voting ... But oh ! What do I see ? You said "big separation" instead of majority hates the lab ? WOW I guess I misjudged you, and you're not a bad person after all, my apologies.

Because this is exactly what Chris said : Lab is indeed dividing the community, but that's not a bad thing (what's bad is the way the lab was introduced in game we can argue, and the fact that progress is lost if something happen, etc ...)

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miljan wrote:

PoE did try, and how you can see a lot of people hate it/dont like it, including you how I understand (also if you do not like something in a game for whatever reason, you give feedback about it, in hopes that devs will change it and make the game better for you). I mean POE can try a lot of things, from card game implementation to puzzle games where more core aspects of the game are gated behind it. I guarantee you, a lot of people that played POE, a arpg that was marketed to be like diablo 2 will be pissed on a lot of those changes, as they have very little to do with arpg games. As same as this one, when we are talking about traps in the lab.

This is where the conversation gets interesting, you're pointing the aspect of the lab you think makes it problematic, thing is, many players who don't like the lab, only have problems with the time it takes to complete, the randomness of the layouts, the loot being too low ilvl, the enchants being too rng etc ... If we gather all these elements, it becomes extremely hard to satisfy everyone, not to forget those who don't care about lab in his current state.

I'm glad we aren't game designer lol, we would spend days before reaching the point where we understand each other :D