Lab: traps are fascist

Posted this as reply to another thread, but this might possibly maybe warrant its own one.

It would appear traps are supposed to affect everyone equally. They don't. Armour and pots help a great deal. If you go hybrid w/o much armour they become quite unforgiving. It's been a breeze to go through the lab on my life/armour build but I've got quite an anxiety to do the same on my hybrid with little armour. I'm only playing HC.

I'll most likely get a beating for this, but I propose a damage nerf to traps in exchange for life recovery effect from pots being disabled for a few seconds.

Please keep the "use-movement-skills", "done-it-in-5-mins" and "lab-is-optional" posts out of here, as they are completely irrelevant.


Edit: To clarify, I do like the lab and its concept. This is not a lab-sucks-whine-thread. If it was up to me I'd incorporate traps into certain higher tier maps as well, or make a different set of maps using lab principles (as alternative to the usual mapping, if you will). This topic is only about equalizing trap danger as it would seem this was GGG's initial goal when going with percentage damage. If you have a better Idea as to how one could archive that, I'd really like to hear it as well :)

Pots help there is no denying that, but they are a tool in which the game provides both inside and outside the lab for life builds.


Secondly armor doesn't help at all against most of the traps, you know the ones that are actually scary. Only the ones that "hit", like the floor spikes or the hammers that come down on you can be mitigated via armor or physical damage mitigation means, even then I'm not entirely sure those work "properly"

But the things that do hurt, the meat tenderizers and the saw blades aren't hits so they can't be mitigated via physical mitigation like armor.


I'm not going to "beat you up" but suggesting that a mechanic that works everywhere else in the game not be allowed inside the lab, well quite frankly that is just the wrong approach. GGG specifically said they are going to address the issues with ES based characters taking too much damage, but just because you don't have access to pots doesn't mean everyone else shouldn't either.


GGG can't go down the line and just continuously nerf advantages one playstyle has over another inside of the lab, they just need to make it more fair by having es characters take a bit less damage and be done with it. Can't mess with mechanics that work in the rest of the game, it simply isn't logical.

Please look up "racist" in some dictionary, that might help. I guess you have bigger problems than the lab.

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goetzjam wrote:

Spoiler

Pots help there is no denying that, but they are a tool in which the game provides both inside and outside the lab for life builds.


Secondly armor doesn't help at all against most of the traps, you know the ones that are actually scary. Only the ones that "hit", like the floor spikes or the hammers that come down on you can be mitigated via armor or physical damage mitigation means, even then I'm not entirely sure those work "properly"

But the things that do hurt, the meat tenderizers and the saw blades aren't hits so they can't be mitigated via physical mitigation like armor.


I'm not going to "beat you up" but suggesting that a mechanic that works everywhere else in the game not be allowed inside the lab, well quite frankly that is just the wrong approach. GGG specifically said they are going to address the issues with ES based characters taking too much damage, but just because you don't have access to pots doesn't mean everyone else shouldn't either.


GGG can't go down the line and just continuously nerf advantages one playstyle has over another inside of the lab, they just need to make it more fair by having es characters take a bit less damage and be done with it. Can't mess with mechanics that work in the rest of the game, it simply isn't logical.

Armour does definitaly help. It doesn't against the DOT effect, but that's not all traps are doing. Also, I do not propose to change anything about that so meh. It just so happens that if you go life, half the time you got armour too, which makes a nice synergy with pots.

Good to know that GGG is going to address that, I wasn't aware of that. I do have access to pots as ES toon - just not the heal effect. I think its important to be able to remove bleeding/poison still, that's why I said it should only stop the life recovery. I don't see how this would be such a big problem. To me it sounds someone doesn't want to lose his edge ;)


@charan: don't be such a nitpick. You are clever enough to figure how this is meant given the context.

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Char1983 wrote:

Please look up "racist" in some dictionary, that might help. I guess you have bigger problems than the lab.

Really ? Are we going to discuss what racism is ? I guess I should have written fascist for a more appropriate metaphor, but does anyone have anything constructive to say as well ?

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dyneol wrote:

Armour does definitaly help. It doesn't against the DOT effect, but that's not all traps are doing. Also, I do not propose to change anything about that so meh. It just so happens that if you go life, half the time you got armour too, which makes a nice synergy with pots.

Good to know that GGG is going to address that, I wasn't aware of that. I do have access to pots as ES toon - just not the heal effect. I think its important to be able to remove bleeding/poison still, that's why I said it should only stop the life recovery. I don't see how this would be such a big problem. To me it sounds someone doesn't want to lose his edge ;)


@charan: don't be such a nitpick. You are clever enough to figure how this is meant given the context.

I want GGG to clarify but all the testing I have done indicates that it does NOT help. I've tried the lab on characters with and without lightning coil, perm fortify, running thru traps with armor pot up. Running thru traps with basalt flask up and the traps that "really hurt" are completely unaffected by the conversions and mitigation types, that is a FACT.

It may seem like armor builds take less damage, because they simply have higher life regen then other builds.

As for not all the traps are doing, almost all the traps, at least the ones that pose the most threat are the DOT ones.



In terms of stopping life recovery, why not disable life regen completely or why not cap movement speed or stop movement skills, its a never ending slope of just nerfing whatever people think is the best and removing the ability to use mechanics that you as a player are introduced from level 1.

Has nothing to do with my edge, I'll come up with another way to mitigate the situation, while players like you will come up with another excuse to nerf that playstyle.


Some builds are better then others in different content, that is a fact. The lab is no different.

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鬼殺し wrote:

There is no depth to which I won't sink to make a good pun.

Besides, this isn't nitpicking. It's pointing out a huge fucking mistake.

I'm out. Joke's made. Point missed. Just another fucking lab whinge thread.

The usual.

I like the lab. I'd just like them to balance out the danger a little bit across the different choices of defense.

Oh well, If you like putting words into my mouth and then [Removed by Support] there is not much I can do about it.

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goetzjam wrote:

Spoiler

I want GGG to clarify but all the testing I have done indicates that it does NOT help. I've tried the lab on characters with and without lightning coil, perm fortify, running thru traps with armor pot up. Running thru traps with basalt flask up and the traps that "really hurt" are completely unaffected by the conversions and mitigation types, that is a FACT.

It may seem like armor builds take less damage, because they simply have higher life regen then other builds.

As for not all the traps are doing, almost all the traps, at least the ones that pose the most threat are the DOT ones.



In terms of stopping life recovery, why not disable life regen completely or why not cap movement speed or stop movement skills, its a never ending slope of just nerfing whatever people think is the best and removing the ability to use mechanics that you as a player are introduced from level 1.

Has nothing to do with my edge, I'll come up with another way to mitigate the situation, while players like you will come up with another excuse to nerf that playstyle.


Some builds are better then others in different content, that is a fact. The lab is no different.

I took less damage with armour on, and even more so when using pots with %armour. It doesn't look like roombas or sawblades care much about armour, but darts and spikes do. Again, its just icing a bit, not the main issue here.

Yea, you've got a good point - life regen should be disabled as well. Again, I do believe GGG's intention with traps was to TRY and make them affect everyone moreless the same. Why else would they go with percentage damage ?

I don't see how trying to equalize its danger is a call for nerf of a playstyle. But you are goetzjam, so I did not expect anything else :)

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鬼殺し wrote:

Yeah, the lab is definitely racist. It hates Evasians. Armourica, fuck yeah.

Spoiler

Don't use words you don't understand, kids.

ROFL , very good one .

I kinda agree on the basic notion. Traps are actually designed with good intentions but are extremely bad implemented. Ive already used that argument here but ill analyze a bit here too.

What i find extremely problematic is the fact that traps NEGATE our character choices in an ARPG game. For every reasonable person that alone should have been enough for a riot, but due to the hype drug people are still sleeping here as it seems.

Only CI/Hybrid users grasped how horrible that design is because they are affected the most but that doesnt mean that life users because have pots are in a better position. Even if practically they (life users) are in a better spot (since they can "correct" mistake with pot usage and life regen) they too see a big chunk of the skill points they have spent on the tree rendered UTTERLY USELESS.

It is common (?!?) knowledge that very vew traps are affected by anything that mitigates damage in game, since most of the traps deal damage persecond with few also having hits. That means armour, dodge, block, fortify, evasion, AA, EB etc have absolutely nothing to offer even if a player has actually invested hard on those mechanics in the tree.

And i ask again how are you people ok with that? How would you feel if there was a area that negated all your crit investment in the tree? Or an area that negated all elemental damage you had etc. Or if traps dealt elemental damage and suddenly that 75% resistance you have is uselless cause the elemental traps ignore resistances too. Sounds stupid and broken, doesnt it? Its the same basic principle if you think about it, and its 100% against the foundamentals of RPG games. And thats why traps (as well the whole labyrinth) are fucking horrible, thats why they seem like a clone of arcade games, thats one of the reasons people hate labyrinth playstyle (amongst others). Traps render useless the same choices that define their build, and that alone as i mentioned before is enough for anyone sane to straight up hate the turn the game took with that expansion.