Feedback and Suggestions (Path of Exile 1) - SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas] - Forum

" Mooginator wrote: " goetzjam wrote: The fact you won't touch the uber lab to me proves how ignorant some members of the community are towards the lab. It doesn't get more entertaining than this. First, I ran the Uber lab once; I'll never do it again because of the time sink cess pool of despicable play that's "required" to obtain and complete it. I despise the lab so much and want the feature to die a horrible death so greatly I simply will not participate in pursuing Uber points. EVER (even with my characters that can do it). I only do the first 6 points because I can faceroll them. But I hate every minute of it (like so many others). Second, given less than 1% of all players/characters ever do the Uber lab (and the majority of them are carries by the "ultra elite" that players pay for) this just reaffirms the problem isn't just GGG, but a number of players that think it's OK to lock character development features behind a "hated" system (by the majority of players), and a system that at its final stage, less than 1% of players can remotely successfully participate in. Yup, that's some great design there. The Lab sucks. The massive majority of players hate it and want another way to obtain ascendancy points tied to work/effort/challenge/skill that doesn't include dodging mind-numbing traps and mis-clicking to be 1-shot killed only to have to start the entire process over again from scratch. Oh, and if the Lab was removed and replaced with some alternative system that made more sense, do you think anyone would miss the lab? Nope. Perhaps only the 1% or less who think it's "cool". People would reminisce and say "remember that crappy lab system back in the day and the traps and 1-shot kills that forced you to start over. So nice PoE got away from that!". The lab is only staying in PoE because GGG doesn't want to acknowledge they created a really crappy mechanic that most everyone hates, and they refuse to put effort into coming up with something better. It's a bad design, bad implementation, designed solely for HC folks, and the worst "feature" PoE has. Simple as that. In a way, you're the type of donator to blame for it all. They push crappy lab/trials content, and you keep paying them for it IN ADVANCE. Stop being a bad consumer, or stop complaining.	Posted by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017, 9:15:46 PM
I don't think GGG is that clueless about the actual reception to this content. They are just balancing risk/reward (in real life), just as raics says. " Mooginator wrote: Second, given less than 1% of all players/characters ever do the Uber lab (and the majority of them are carries by the "ultra elite" that players pay for) this just reaffirms the problem isn't just GGG, but a number of players that think it's OK to lock character development features behind a "hated" system (by the majority of players), and a system that at its final stage, less than 1% of players can remotely successfully participate in. See, here's the thing. The only way any of the Labs can be taken seriously as progression locked behind skill/effort is if solo is required. That would arguably be truest to the vision of Ascendancy, and definitely truest to the lore behind it. So why hasn't GGG done this yet? I don't know, but these two (closely connected) reasons are probably closest to the mark: 1. The hatred would rise to a crescendo, as the current workaround for those who don't want to engage the material is to pay someone else to do it. (Which includes more than just Izaro killing. It also includes the expertise and familiarity with that day's layout in order to get through the hated material really fast.) With the removal of that tool, players' ire would quite quickly direct itself at GGG. 2. I often complain about GGG's band-aid solutions to Labyrinth hatred. Well, this would be the opposite, akin to ripping a band-aid off of a nasty sore, leaving it exposed for everyone to see. This is the opposite of GGG's apparent current strategy of layering more band-aids atop the problem, such as by shortening the length of the Labyrinth. For the same reason, I am afraid they will never randomize the Labyrinth so they can balance it around making it less end-heavy (a solution I describe in detail here: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1897324): It would (temporarily) make the Labyrinth's flaws stand out even more. A similar effect of ripping off the band-aid. But sometimes you have to remove a bandage, so you can clean a wound. Making the Labyrinth a true (random) Labyrinth and limiting it to solo play may both be essential prerequisites to fixing it so that it is actually fun to play. And here's where Labyrinth haters will get mad at me: Decoupling the Ascendancy points from the Labyrinth would also be a band-aid rather than a real solution, analogous to the current pay-for-carries workaround. Fixing the problem, rather than giving your playerbase more tools to ignore the problem, is the superior implementation. Wash your hands, Exile! Last edited by gibbousmoon#4656 on Jun 12, 2017, 9:31:35 PM	Posted by gibbousmoon#4656 on Jun 12, 2017, 9:24:53 PM Quote this Post
" Turtledove wrote: Actually, I think that may be the problem. GGG has built a great game but I don't think that they really do any research into their user base. To a degree it's understandable. Have you ever thought about the fact that it is very likely the other way around ? They do research, and you don't really know what's what here so you are assuming that they don't. " gibbousmoon wrote: See, here's the thing. The only way any of the Labs can be taken seriously as progression locked behind skill/effort is if solo is required. That would arguably be truest to the vision of Ascendancy, and definitely truest to the lore behind it. As I would find it very very unfair for pure support builds, I think that it would be a bad thing. Having everybody needed to be in the boss room at the beginning of the fight, and have the boss switch agro ( and some other adds ) would already be better imho. SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.	Posted by Fruz#6137 on Jun 12, 2017, 9:34:34 PM Quote this Post
" Fruz wrote: " Turtledove wrote: Actually, I think that may be the problem. GGG has built a great game but I don't think that they really do any research into their user base. To a degree it's understandable. Have you ever thought about the fact that it is very likely the other way around ? They do research, and you don't really know what's what here so you are assuming that they don't. " gibbousmoon wrote: See, here's the thing. The only way any of the Labs can be taken seriously as progression locked behind skill/effort is if solo is required. That would arguably be truest to the vision of Ascendancy, and definitely truest to the lore behind it. As I would find it very very unfair for pure support builds, I think that it would be a bad thing. Having everybody needed to be in the boss room at the beginning of the fight, and have the boss switch agro ( and some other adds ) would already be better imho. I think giboussmoon was considering party locked "Labyrinth" runs, so even when randomised, you would get to experience the content in your group, but with a twist that make it special to that character/party of characters... And that would be a hell of an improvement comparing it to the sad state that the "Labyrinth" has for now... And it would be perfect if those changes would actually implemented before we reach PoE 5.0... PSS: Our almighty TencentGGG overlords are very scrupulous regarding criticizing their abilities to take proper decisions and consider everything "needlessly harsh and condescending"... Good to know "free speech" doesn't apply in any form or manner on the forums these days...	Posted by sofocle10000#6408 on Jun 12, 2017, 10:12:09 PM Quote this Post
" Fruz wrote: " Turtledove wrote: Actually, I think that may be the problem. GGG has built a great game but I don't think that they really do any research into their user base. To a degree it's understandable. Have you ever thought about the fact that it is very likely the other way around ? They do research, and you don't really know what's what here so you are assuming that they don't. No, I never really thought that. I wish that they would do research but, I'm quite certain that they don't. Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired!	Posted by Turtledove#4014 on Jun 12, 2017, 10:48:52 PM Quote this Post
" Turtledove wrote: No, I never really thought that. I wish that they would do research but, I'm quite certain that they don't. Yet you know nothing. It's purely baseless, you are blinding yourself trying to think that they don't. SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.	Posted by Fruz#6137 on Jun 12, 2017, 11:19:01 PM Quote this Post
" Fruz wrote: " Turtledove wrote: No, I never really thought that. I wish that they would do research but, I'm quite certain that they don't. Yet you know nothing. It's purely baseless, you are blinding yourself trying to think that they don't. Believe whatever you would like to believe. Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired!	Posted by Turtledove#4014 on Jun 12, 2017, 11:48:41 PM Quote this Post
I posted somewhere else about the lab but since this is a huge thread (500+ pages and counting) I feel I should put my thoughts here as well. I want to start by saying that I absolutely love this game, and it may have even surpassed D2 for me at this point as my favorite game, which I thought would never happen. Every new system they've implemented like Exiles, Strongboxes, Essences, Prophecies, Breaches, etc., they are all unique and fun (to varying degrees). They are also all optional: don't like prophecies? Don't run them. Breaches too rippy? Just don't step on the giant purple hand in the ground. Then there's the lab. Oh boy. First of all, I think Ascendancies are awesome. Having the ability to truly specialize your character really adds to the progression experience, which is what ARPGS are all about. Turning a character from a weakling wearing a Shabby Jerkin and a Cracked Sash into a demon-smashing war machine armed to the teeth and crackling with power is just so satisfying. All that said however, THE LAB IS ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE. It is by far the worst piece of content that GGG has put out. It is tedious, annoying, and completely different from everything else in the game (all *my opinion* of course, but many, many people agree). Some characters you create will breeze through it, for others it will be nearly impossible (literally, there is no way my Autobomber Assassin can kill Uber Izaro without his boss nuke Vaal RF available for the fight). And to make matters worse, the most important, character defining thing in the game (Ascendancy) is gated behind it, making it virtually mandatory. Before the lab defenders jump all over me saying things like "git gud", it has nothing to do with the difficulty of it. I have completed uber lab many times, and on multiple characters. And if you have a character that is built to handle it well, it is a joke. My Juggernaut can literally afk right on top of the traps. Challenging? I don't think so. Annoying? Absolutely. If you like the lab, great, that's fantastic for you. You will get very rich with the profits from the chests and the helm enchants as I have with my dedicated runner. The lab can stay, just please let us get the Ascendancies through normal POE content, that is all. The fact that every single character I make has to run it 4 freaking times to actually complete his or her progression journey is completely absurd. There have been many times where the next step for my character has been to run one of the labs and the thought of it just upset me to the point that I literally logged off the game and played something else. Does that seem like good game design to you when your players would rather quit the game than do the lab? To summarize, I'm not asking for removal of the lab. It can be extremely profitable for those that wish to do it. Do your thing. Just give those of us that really hate it an alternative way to get our Ascendancy doing normal POE content. I really hope that maybe one day (if this thread gets to like 1000 pages of mostly negative thoughts on the lab or something), maybe GGG will finally consider letting us Ascend another way. Thanks for reading. Last edited by VigilanteCat#3681 on Jun 13, 2017, 12:31:28 AM	Posted by VigilanteCat#3681 on Jun 13, 2017, 12:05:08 AM Quote this Post
There are four guys who will tell you that you're wrong. The rest of us, THE MAJORITY, KNOW that you are correct. Good post, VigilanteCat	Posted by Deleted on Jun 13, 2017, 1:27:57 AM
" VigilanteCat wrote: I posted somewhere else about the lab but since this is a huge thread (500+ pages and counting) I feel I should put my thoughts here as well. I want to start by saying that I absolutely love this game, and it may have even surpassed D2 for me at this point as my favorite game, which I thought would never happen. Every new system they've implemented like Exiles, Strongboxes, Essences, Prophecies, Breaches, etc., they are all unique and fun (to varying degrees). They are also all optional: don't like prophecies? Don't run them. Breaches too rippy? Just don't step on the giant purple hand in the ground. Then there's the lab. Oh boy. First of all, I think Ascendancies are awesome. Having the ability to truly specialize your character really adds to the progression experience, which is what ARPGS are all about. Turning a character from a weakling wearing a Shabby Jerkin and a Cracked Sash into a demon-smashing war machine armed to the teeth and crackling with power is just so satisfying. All that said however, THE LAB IS ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE. It is by far the worst piece of content that GGG has put out. It is tedious, annoying, and completely different from everything else in the game (all *my opinion* of course, but many, many people agree). Some characters you create will breeze through it, for others it will be nearly impossible (literally, there is no way my Autobomber Assassin can kill Uber Izaro without his boss nuke Vaal RF available for the fight). And to make matters worse, the most important, character defining thing in the game (Ascendancy) is gated behind it, making it virtually mandatory. Before the lab defenders jump all over me saying things like "git gud", it has nothing to do with the difficulty of it. I have completed uber lab many times, and on multiple characters. And if you have a character that is built to handle it well, it is a joke. My Juggernaut can literally afk right on top of the traps. Challenging? I don't think so. Annoying? Absolutely. If you like the lab, great, that's fantastic for you. You will get very rich with the profits from the chests and the helm enchants as I have with my dedicated runner. The lab can stay, just please let us get the Ascendancies through normal POE content, that is all. The fact that every single character I make has to run it 4 freaking times to actually complete his or her progression journey is completely absurd. There have been many times where the next step for my character has been to run one of the labs and the thought of it just upset me to the point that I literally logged off the game and played something else. Does that seem like good game design to you when your players would rather quit the game than do the lab? To summarize, I'm not asking for removal of the lab. It can be extremely profitable for those that wish to do it. Do your thing. Just give those of us that really hate it an alternative way to get our Ascendancy doing normal POE content. I really hope that maybe one day (if this thread gets to like 1000 pages of mostly negative thoughts on the lab or something), maybe GGG will finally consider letting us Ascend another way. Thanks for reading. VigilanteCat, thank you for posting your opinion on THE ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE LAB. You have already previously been added to the very long list of 889 names that have posted a similar opinion. Over 320 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 880 posters in support That was from your post made in the Changes to the Labyrinth thread. This is the first post I've seen of yours in the Feedback and Suggestions forum posting your opinion on the absolutely horrible lab. So, I'll do the additional research now. Here's VigilanteCat's summary profile. Joined: Jul 31, 2012 Last Visited: Jun 5, 2017 Total Forum Posts: 83 (0.05 posts per day) Hydra Supporter Breachlord Supporter Oriath Supporter VigilanteCat's entry in the list has been transformed from a "#" to a "o$". We're all honored to have witnessed this magnificent transition. Almost as honored and blessed as we all have been from reading VigilanteCat's wonderful post. Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired!	Posted by Turtledove#4014 on Jun 13, 2017, 1:57:08 AM Quote this Post