Simple example of smart (and not) grind in PoE:
1) Player A "just farming" Marketplace in Cruel for hours
2) Player B does chaos recipe by doing Piety Merc. runs
Guess who of them will end up her, on the forum, complaining that he can't afford 5L after 2 years of playing?
That's a good example of how rewarding "smart play" is done well.
A problem is that:
3) Player C does chaos recipe by doing Piety Merc. runs and simultaneously uses poe.xyz.is and trade chat to get market information and thus maximize his profit as well as flip undervalued items.
will by far surpass both 1. and 2. in terms of both wealth but also in utility. This is problematic if a game wants to focus on the "action rpg" aspect.
So player C does multiple times more work then player A or B and reaps more profits.
Unbelievable.
That's like saying person 1 works a min-wage job, player 2 works a nice job, and player 3 works a nice job and invests in stocks and a business.
Last edited by RagnarokChu on Jul 16, 2014, 10:16:39 AM
Thats the thing, there SHOULDN'T BE an "optimal way" of farming. Farming should just be that: farming. Meaning you grind maps, bosses, and areas over and over. There shouldn't be a barrier to making currency at a reasonable pace without jumping through hoops like equipping an entirely alternative sent of farming gear which, by the way, costs currency to make it even worth while.
If I play for about 4-6 hours a day, I should by all means be making a reasonable amount of exalts. That is realistically a lot of time to invest in a game almost every day. Not to mention the REAL money invested in this game. Also, what if I am simply not interested in trading? What if i simply don't like it at all? Should I be forced to trade and do something I don't enjoy in this game in order to afford really good end-game gear at all? With prices the way they are, I can't afford a 6 link I want to add an additional support gem I've always wanted to use. I also need to replace my boots, gloves, one ring and helm. I want them to be GOOD too. With prices and drop-rates the way they are though, It's going to be forever until I can afford those and I even put in the time almost every day.
Drop rates suck. Everyone knows it.
Not true. Drop rates are fine.
See, what you are saying is essentially: "No matter what I do in game, no matter how smart I play, I should get a fixed amount of loot per hour." To me this sounds utterly boring. It is kind of a communist way to design games. I love PoE exactly because it rewards the effort I put into the game and playing smart.
However, there is hope you. Blizzard essentially adopted your idea to a large degree with D3 RoS and to some degreee in WoW. Maybe you should have a look at their games? I find them utterly boring exactly because they follow this design principle of "no matter what you do, you get about the same amount of loot per hour as everyone else". To me playing these games feels like being a bot - no intelligence required, just mind numbing farming.
No, I'm *not* saying there should be "X exalts per hour" at all. I'm saying that if I map, grind bosses, and do 100% level clears over and over again the currency drop rate should be a little better than it is now. I don't have the resources to buy amazing IIQ or IIR gear. The most I have are those two gems and maybe an additional 20% IIQ & IIR from my gear. Thats it. Grinding hours upon hours ***IS putting the work in***.
oh and please, this game doesn't take a physics degree. It is pretty simple.
Thats the thing, there SHOULDN'T BE an "optimal way" of farming. Farming should just be that: farming. Meaning you grind maps, bosses, and areas over and over. There shouldn't be a barrier to making currency at a reasonable pace without jumping through hoops like equipping an entirely alternative sent of farming gear which, by the way, costs currency to make it even worth while.
If I play for about 4-6 hours a day, I should by all means be making a reasonable amount of exalts. That is realistically a lot of time to invest in a game almost every day. Not to mention the REAL money invested in this game. Also, what if I am simply not interested in trading? What if i simply don't like it at all? Should I be forced to trade and do something I don't enjoy in this game in order to afford really good end-game gear at all? With prices the way they are, I can't afford a 6 link I want to add an additional support gem I've always wanted to use. I also need to replace my boots, gloves, one ring and helm. I want them to be GOOD too. With prices and drop-rates the way they are though, It's going to be forever until I can afford those and I even put in the time almost every day.
Drop rates suck. Everyone knows it.
Not true. Drop rates are fine.
See, what you are saying is essentially: "No matter what I do in game, no matter how smart I play, I should get a fixed amount of loot per hour." To me this sounds utterly boring. It is kind of a communist way to design games. I love PoE exactly because it rewards the effort I put into the game and playing smart.
However, there is hope you. Blizzard essentially adopted your idea to a large degree with D3 RoS and to some degreee in WoW. Maybe you should have a look at their games? I find them utterly boring exactly because they follow this design principle of "no matter what you do, you get about the same amount of loot per hour as everyone else". To me playing these games feels like being a bot - no intelligence required, just mind numbing farming.
No, I'm *not* saying there should be "X exalts per hour" at all. I'm saying that if I map, grind bosses, and do 100% level clears over and over again the currency drop rate should be a little better than it is now. I don't have the resources to buy amazing IIQ or IIR gear. The most I have are those two gems and maybe an additional 20% IIQ & IIR from my gear. Thats it. Grinding hours upon hours ***IS putting the work in***.
oh and please, this game doesn't take a physics degree. It is pretty simple.
Sadly for you the game is balances around having massive amounts of IIQ + IIR.
Don't get me wrong, I supported a few threads + posted a few of my own to remove IIQ + IIR because they are shitty stats to balance the game around and then buff drop rates to composite with a few changes in loot tables and other stuff.
I also have legacy and nonlegacy IIQ + IIR gear that stack both to like +150% without gems or the flask so I'm not hating either.
By stacking a ton of IIQ + IIR you have to remember that it effectively makes your time more effective, let's say by having 150% of both IIQ + IIR can turn a 1 hour grind to be as effective as a 3-5 hour grind.
Even if you grind 5 hours, the same 5 hours for me is 3-5x more profit.
Last edited by RagnarokChu on Jul 16, 2014, 12:46:12 PM
See, what you are saying is essentially: "No matter what I do in game, no matter how smart I play, I should get a fixed amount of loot per hour." To me this sounds utterly boring. It is kind of a communist way to design games. I love PoE exactly because it rewards the effort I put into the game and playing smart.
please define bold part.
especially the "play smart" thing.
to me, there is absolutely no such thing as "playing smart", in Path Of Exile.
there is - however - a thing called "trading smart", which is to me a kind of activity I'll never do because (a) I don't play ARPG to trade, and (b) "trade smart" or "get rich" implies a "no holds barred", "ends justify means" approach to trade.
taking advantage of other players' lack of knowledge, as a very mild example.
truth is, no matter how well you actually play the game, PoE's relentless, overkill RNG will make sure your reward would be a function of luck, and luck alone.
I have literally thousands of hours spent playing the game, to back up the above statement.
you mentioned D3. well D3 is risk/reward. not the kind of risk/reward I'd ideally love to have - where players are encouraged to take risks and challenges, while also being punished for playing like zero-risk-grinding cowards - but it's something.
something PoE does not have at all, because even "good-RNG" rewards like Atziri drops are still guarded by layers of "bad-RNG".
I still won't play D3 though. call it "emotional trauma" from my initial experience playing it when it came out.
Alva: I'm sweating like a hog in heat
Shadow: That was fun
See, what you are saying is essentially: "No matter what I do in game, no matter how smart I play, I should get a fixed amount of loot per hour." To me this sounds utterly boring. It is kind of a communist way to design games. I love PoE exactly because it rewards the effort I put into the game and playing smart.
please define bold part.
especially the "play smart" thing.
to me, there is absolutely no such thing as "playing smart", in Path Of Exile.
there is - however - a thing called "trading smart", which is to me a kind of activity I'll never do because (a) I don't play ARPG to trade, and (b) "trade smart" or "get rich" implies a "no holds barred", "ends justify means" approach to trade.
taking advantage of other players' lack of knowledge, as a very mild example.
truth is, no matter how well you actually play the game, PoE's relentless, overkill RNG will make sure your reward would be a function of luck, and luck alone.
I have literally thousands of hours spent playing the game, to back up the above statement.
you mentioned D3. well D3 is risk/reward. not the kind of risk/reward I'd ideally love to have - where players are encouraged to take risks and challenges, while also being punished for playing like zero-risk-grinding cowards - but it's something.
something PoE does not have at all, because even "good-RNG" rewards like Atziri drops are still guarded by layers of "bad-RNG".
I still won't play D3 though. call it "emotional trauma" from my initial experience playing it when it came out.
This might be unbelievable but there are people farming with mf cullers + tons of mf on them farming stuff ultra quick with super fast builds therefore farming more currency then you can ever.
Also stop quoting D3: RoS as any risk vs reward, it's an ARPG. Unless your playing hardcore there is no risk vs reward and if there is any risk you would skip over it or farm easier content for slightly less but almost as good rewards until there is no risk.
There are people who also played thousands of hours and billion times richer and there are people who play first 3 days of a race/league with 24/7 streaming and no RMT and are richer then you.
Last edited by RagnarokChu on Jul 16, 2014, 1:33:49 PM
please define bold part.
especially the "play smart" thing.
to me, there is absolutely no such thing as "playing smart", in Path Of Exile.
there is - however - a thing called "trading smart", which is to me a kind of activity I'll never do because (a) I don't play ARPG to trade, and (b) "trade smart" or "get rich" implies a "no holds barred", "ends justify means" approach to trade.
taking advantage of other players' lack of knowledge, as a very mild example.
truth is, no matter how well you actually play the game, PoE's relentless, overkill RNG will make sure your reward would be a function of luck, and luck alone.
I have literally thousands of hours spent playing the game, to back up the above statement.
you mentioned D3. well D3 is risk/reward. not the kind of risk/reward I'd ideally love to have - where players are encouraged to take risks and challenges, while also being punished for playing like zero-risk-grinding cowards - but it's something.
something PoE does not have at all, because even "good-RNG" rewards like Atziri drops are still guarded by layers of "bad-RNG".
I still won't play D3 though. call it "emotional trauma" from my initial experience playing it when it came out.
Mr. Keys, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Spoiler
I also now understand why you're so bad at this game, if you think there's no such thing as playing smart, you can never become good at it.
GGG banning all political discussion shortly after getting acquired by China is a weird coincidence.
Well here's the thing, it's similar in IRL as well ->
If person A scrub the floors for 100 hours and then if person B is an award winning architect and works for 100 hours - do they earn the same amount of money?
Say what you like about GGG's design, I'm glad you can't slam your dick against the keyboard for 10 hours and achieve the same as someone who is trying to make currency for 10 ours.
Believe it or not, if you try - RNG has quite little to do with it. My friend wanted Shavs, okay - so he got 400 IIR and farmed Dom, the best drop he got was BoR or something like that but he kept at it for 2 weeks and converted up the way, sold 1 ex uniques and rares and bought it. There wasn't really any magical RNG involved.
Chance Orb.
Spoiler
From under a fucking rock.
Spoiler
Random mobs (wasted 2 more "crafting" because I like scrubbing floors).
Spoiler
The advantages of trade/RMT are obvious. But please, tell me more about no magical RNG.
@Ragnarok, you may call farming with Magic-Find Cullers "playing smart", but I call it "having a special technique in rolling dice".
ultimately, you and I are rolling the same dice.
well maybe not exact same, because yours are 999-sided while mine are 1000-sided.
still dice though.
at no point are any of us, actually encouraged to take risks or accept challenges.
quite the contrary: pick up 999-sided dice (or 998-sided if a lot of MF), and grind the current lower-risk zones for your character.
or trade.
or both.
that's Path Of Exile.
and what you said about the current state of D3 is almost the exact same thing I said,
read my post again:
Spoiler
"
well D3 is risk/reward. not the kind of risk/reward I'd ideally love to have - where players are encouraged to take risks and challenges, while also being punished for playing like zero-risk-grinding cowards - but it's something.
@Xavderion, reading just one line of your disgusting, Ad hominem crap of a post, was enough for me to know, you don't deserve a response.
have a nice day.
Alva: I'm sweating like a hog in heat
Shadow: That was fun
Last edited by johnKeys on Jul 16, 2014, 2:39:55 PM
to me, there is absolutely no such thing as "playing smart", in Path Of Exile.
I disagree.
you _can_ play smart. loading up a toon with IIR and running Dom all day is playing it smart. Trading all day and flipping items from your Dom runs (or 78 map runs) is playing smart. That's IF your goal is to accumulate currency. It bends the RNG in your favor. Just like running city of sarn all day to find a midnight does. you get more snakeyes when you throw the dice 1000 times than you do when you throw it 100.
As you correctly point out, they don't really constitute the game a lot of us want to play. Also a _large_ part of playing smart is playing a _lot_, again to bend the RNG in your favor. I ain't got that kind of time. And the RNG forces you to accumulate currency cuz RNG knows that you ain't getting the drop you need for the build you want.
I _was_ looking forward to the next 4-month league.
Now all I can think about is the fact that at least one of my characters is going to have to be something that levels fast and accumulates currency, i.e. an MFer just so I can generate the currency I'll need to play the character I actually _want_ to play.
And i can't wait to see what the next hard-as-hell, RNG gated content is. More content I won't be able to do in 4 months. And don't bother telling me how 4 months is plenty of time. It's not on my schedule, and I already play this game way more than I should...
p.s. RNGods help me, I'm beginning to think that shagsbeard does have the best approach to playing this game. But no HC for me. First time I rip to desync on a character that took me 4 months to level I'm never playing again. Best not to tempt fate.
