Low life offers to great benefits and is unique gated.

Concerning ES melee builds,CI and low life are pretty balanced,as long as the low life user does not use snapshoting.Snapshoting will be fixed

For me,it is not crown of eyes or whatever that makes Low life overpowred.It is 1)snapshotting and 2)Pain Attonment,be attacker or caster.Pain atunment was meant to be a strong buff when you are in danger,and it has never be used like that.

As i stated in another thread,my suggestion is to severely buff pain atunment,to something like 150% MORE spell damage,but the low life aspect to be calculated by both the amount of ES and Life,pretty much the same thing they did with Rigthoues Fire,and of course,it should not work with CI.After proposing this a guy replied that there is no need to go low life if they do this.

I completely disagree.For starter's.if you are an attacker,blood rage+ Inner force will give you 65% increased attack speed.That's like 11% more than a 20/20 faster attacks.Secondly,even without snapshotting,with the aura buffers,you will be able to still use at least 2 more auras on life.Considering the power of buffed auras,this is HUGE.Thirdly,u will still be able to get pain attunment when in danger.

I beleive these will make low life balanced,to have some benefits and some losses,and not to be a straight up better choice over an equally expensive CI build.At this moment,for most builds,Low life is an upgrade to CI.(mind,no jelly at all here,i did have a 6L shavronne's)


Now after saying all these,i want to clarify,that with the end of ambush in July,it will be a year of Shavrone's dominating PoE.The #1 item,like kaoms used to be for a few months before it.So i would not shed a tear,even if it loses it's viability.Let top players try something else

"

Poutsos wrote:

For me,it is not crown of eyes or whatever that makes Low life overpowred.It is 1)snapshotting and 2)Pain Attonment,be attacker or caster.Pain atunment was meant to be a strong buff when you are in danger,and it has never be used like that.

exactly. and yet any "temporary buff" i see is virtually worthless.

this is a game where either you faceroll or you get 1-shot.

30% more damage when you are about to die ? that's not saving you. not a chance.

about the only buff i've every seen that _might_ be remotely worthwhile as a "temporary" buff is the 50% damage reduction from starkonja's hood. that actually might save your ass.

the whole idea of a temporary buff from low life, as the game currently stands, is silly.

and MF based on low life ? that could never have meant to be "temporary". it has to be reliable to be useful.

"

plasticeyes wrote:

about the only buff i've every seen that _might_ be remotely worthwhile as a "temporary" buff is the 50% damage reduction from starkonja's hood. that actually might save your ass.

That's not how that works.
Starkonja's reduces the damage you deal by 50% (additively with your increases) on low life. It doesn't affect the damage you receive.

At least some people seem to be concerned about game-balance instead of there pixel wealth.

Happy to see that.

Thx for the response poutsos. I agree with your assessment that low-life offers to many benefits atm given current game-state and that it should be toned down a notch.

However i don't agree with your way of achieving that, but we can't all agree i think, the dev's should choose how to act, as long as they act i will be happy and be creative with what is presented.

For instance, my point of view is that the dev's intended for low-life mechanics to be panic buffs. However the community decided to not utilize them in that fashion, given this, i think they should just rework the whole mechanic behind it and balance it accordingly so it opens up new build diversity instead of restricting it like currently is the case.

(the community does not use low-life mechanics as panic buffs for a good reason, there is very little time to panic in this game. This decision of the community has a meaning and the dev's should acknowledge that and react accordingly.)

Your approach is also viable, but does not tackle the core of the issue i think.

Pain atonement for instance, given your vision of it, it would become unreliable. The community does not utilize unreliable buffs/mechanics otherwise they would already utilize these buffs like intended on other builds. ( a normal spell caster would put one point in pain atonement for instance to gain the buff when on low-life, however i know of nobody doing this because passive points are scarce)

I think keeping low-life like the community utilized it (not panic buffs, but permanent buffs at a cost) would be good, however atm the cost vs benefit is out of wack and the core principle of being able to utilize low-life mechanics is gated and that's a bad thing.

Like you mentioned in your post, shavronnes will remain incredibly strong because of things like additional aura's/blood rage/low-life unique modifiers.

In regards to my suggestion in the OP, shavronnes low-life builds would benefit from the extra aura's compared to "rare item" low-life builds.(still a very solid buff)

Anywayz, it's sad to see so little objectivity in the game-play discussion forum.
Half of the posters can only view low-life with shavs in mind, actually proving my point and then continue to defend it. So very sad, at least i am sure the people at GGG will read this objectively and that's all i care for.

It's sad to see people repeat the same

"

LoPan wrote:

I think this is another case of, "I can't afford something so I don't like it."

Without it holding any value whatsoever to this thread.

1) you don't know what i own in this game
2) i enjoy challenge in a game, not trivializing a very cool game mechanic

If anything, it appears to me you guys can't afford to make a low-life build without shavronnes?
B u M m E r.

"

Malone wrote:

"

phoenix4dota wrote:

"

LoPan wrote:

I think this is another case of, "I can't afford something so I don't like it."

/thread

Making a bad assumption and stereotype doesn't end anything. Low life builds are built around a few uniques only and thats pretty dumb. Yes I can afford to make one.

So everybody who disagrees with you is not objective? I just told you I made a low life build without a 'doesn't bypass ES' mod on my gear. How much life do you think you need if you have -30% chaos resist to not get instantly killed? What percentage of the people do you think have more chaos resist than that? I think the majority do not. Now, how much equivalent life is that when you have 79% chaos resist?

Maybe some simple math will help:
A hit of 3850 chaos damage will be enough to kill somebody with 5000 life and -30% chaos resist.
A hit of 3850 chaos damage will be 809 damage to somebody with 79% chaos resist.
809 life is considered low life if max life is 2312. Is it really that hard to get 2312 max life for a low life build?

No, it is not. I had over 800 usable life for my low life build. The only time I died to chaos damage was when I wasn't playing smart. Know the dangers around and play smart and you can do it without a shavs.

If the devs thought low life was supposed to be an emergency buff, they would not have included items such as Wondertrap boots. Because nothing gets you out of a jam when you're in danger like 100% magic find. /sarcasm

Shavs makes low life builds brainless. Solaris Lorica makes low life builds less brainless but still fairly easy. Other low life builds require using your brain to play tactically. Your guise of balance is just a request for more brainless play. You are saying this argument is not about economics. Note that my argument has nothing to do with economics.

edit: For those without a Saffell's Frame, a hit of 3850 chaos damage will do 963 damage to somebody with 75% chaos resist. The max life you'd need to make that work low life is 2752. A little harder but still doable without a shavs.

shavronne's is the enigma of POE, and im sure it is intended as they didnt nerf it.

the psychological effects which keep some players motivated until they got stuff like shavs/the other BIS uniques have already been mentioned, and i think u will just have to wait until GGG decides to bring major changes and a build possibility which beats low life shav (which i would expect on some major addon, Mind over Matter brought some alternatives which are not that highend but good), get the gating uniques, or play a different game.

shavs/low life are connected very strongly, and trying to seperate them as "game mechanic" and "BiS unique" is just a difference of words, but not really of gameplay / builds.
and a change like u propose isnt likely to happen because it doesnt make sense to devalue shavs/the highend item everyone wants without bringing in a new "enigma"

Sorry mark i just cant take you seriously, be so kind to link your gear on that hero and its passive tree.

Your suggestion to this issue is a unique that has no synergy at all with the build we are discussing here.

It removes block

It has no life value

It has no es value

Simply put getting a lorica and a 650+ es shield + the es shield nodes would be better then that. Simply because it would nullify the gear requirement of every piece having around 20 +-% chaos resistance. (since you could just stack ES, run -60 chaos and get more EHP because of a higher leach cap)

So please, be so kind as to link me that build + items and the highest level map you actively farmed with it.

"

MDGeizt wrote:

shavronne's is the enigma of POE, and im sure it is intended as they didnt nerf it.

the psychological effects which keep some players motivated until they got stuff like shavs/the other BIS uniques have already been mentioned, and i think u will just have to wait until GGG decides to bring major changes and a build possibility which beats low life shav (which i would expect on some major addon, Mind over Matter brought some alternatives which are not that highend but good), get the gating uniques, or play a different game.

Like i mentioned already in this thread, shavronnes was not BiS prior to act3x release.
The fact 95% of the community thinks this is because the "rare item" equivalent of a shavronnes build is hard to design and very gear dependent.
(in fact shavronnes is the "cheap solution" to it)

It's because of recent additions to the game this balance has shifted.

GGG not nerfing it was perfectly "ok" since it never reached BiS status prior to this release and additions after it. And it is also accepted that GGG does not have a major testing team and sometimes simply misses synergy issue's or balance changes after implementing new factors in the game.

Also i don't desire a new Fotm build or something that wrecks the game in braindead mode, if anything i oppose that sort of game-play since i find it mind-numbing. This thread is not for my personal benefit.

"

shavs/low life are connected very strongly, and trying to seperate them as "game mechanic" and "BiS unique" is just a difference of words, but not really of gameplay / builds.
and a change like u propose isnt likely to happen because it doesnt make sense to devalue shavs/the highend item everyone wants without bringing in a new "enigma"

The only way shavs and low life where connected prior to act3x release was because shavs made a low-life build easy peacy no worry full pedal to the medal mode. Instead of requiring a good sense of balance between hp/es/chaos resistance and dual leach/regen, not to mention game mechanics involved.

And saying a "rare item" low-life build is not really different in terms of gameplay/build compared to a shavronnes low-life build.... i don't know what to say to that sorry.
(since that is what you are saying when you are talking about "low-life game mechanic" and "bis unique", since you have no experience with the game mechanic without utilizing shavronnes)

I hope you understand that.

I think i will request a lock of this thread soon. 99% of the community has no experience with no-shavronnes low-life builds. And i guess nobody wants to be able to do so in the future.

Sad for build diversity and options, but it is what it is.

And mark i am looking forward to your build/items and highest map progression. You got me curious as to what your build is.

Peace and hf all.

i get ur point, although i dont have any low life experience myself, i can imagine that but if u bring in the proposed changes u devalue "the shav construct" and i was just trying to tell u there are marketing reasons/game motivation for a majority of the long-term players which i think are of more importance for GGG than bringing back a niche build (doesnt mean i share this opinion). other than that my post was pointless, and sorry ;) talk to mark who has more to contribute on ur specific topic.

edit: and think of it this way: if any of your suggestions (only a little part of it) somehow reaches a developer, and helps them to develop new ideas (in changing the game in a forward manner, not reverting to older states) it is a success regardless of what any of the "community" think about it.

Just pointing out the difference between shavronnes prior to act3x and after it.

And how low-life is a stand-alone game mechanic that is not directly linked with shavronnes. That's just the community perception imo since the alternative approach is rarely utilized.

I do understand your point, but given the fact it used to be like this, i see no real argument in that :/.

People seem to conclude that shavronnes would lose potency or value after an implementation like this. I feel this is incorrect and a hasty conclusion.

given how aura's got tweaked and buffed, getting even +1 aura is a huge deal for a character in terms of strength. On top of that they would still have very easy acces to the low-life benefits like they do know, while still having a very low gear requirement (in terms of chaos resist stacking/ splitting hp and es/ splitting lifesteal + regen on both life and es).

All these things would remain like they are. Only the low-life mechanic would change, not shavronnes in itself.

The result will be a bit less dps, that is correct, but i wonder if this can be a concern given the dps numbers builds like this achieve and the current required dps to clear the game?

But thanks for sharing non-the-less.

This change is like the flameblast nerf imo. People seem to conclude its a nerf, i consider it balance within the current game-state. But that is my own opinion.

Edit : just read your edit, and yes i am aware :) that's why i made this thread. I really don't care for shavronnes or the "pixel wealth", however i do care for balance and the longevity of the game. This thread is to bring to light a recent change that had greater impact then GGG had foreseen imo. Even if they don't change anything, it would be cool if they read it and are just "aware" of this.

And if they did in-fact foresee this, then it is intended and i won't give a damn :).